PDGA Board of Director Elections

[roblee]

As we know, Disc Golf is a young sport. The PDGA, as a player directed governing entity is even younger becoming "official"in 1986. That's also when the first official PDGA Rules were published. There have been 9 official revisions. The game changed. The equipment changed. The business model changed. Many changes were not comprehendible in 1986. That's where gender reassignment becomes relevant.

Originally, player classifications were first divided by sex: there were male and female divisions. Males were prohibited from playing in female divisions. That was the rule in 1986 (4.6), 1990 (804.08), 1997 (804.08), & 2002 (804.08). In 2006 the classification rules were "[Removed: All information on player classifications in the rules and moving them to the developing PDGA Competion Manual]". I didn't find a a 2006 CM version. 2013 Competition Manual 2.1 G. still male & female. 2018 (2.01 H) first change to mixed and female and 1st mention of gender reassignment rules. 2022 (2.01 H) mixed & female.

Sex/gender designations were always M for male and F for female. I think it was a coincidence that the new term Mixed (which includes males) is the same letter thus simplifying the conversion terminology.

This is just some historical context to indicate how quickly the current issues became important and that this rapid evolution may create divisions and passionate debate among the stakeholders. I certainly don't envy the the job ahead for the PDGA Subcommittees, Committees, Staff, Board of Directors, and Director.

 

[txmxer]

I have no issue with trans people or anything they choose to do. I'll call you a female every time and won't ridicule your decision to change sexes. But when it comes to competitions that involve money, scholarships, and sponsorship opportunities, is it fair for someone who had 30 years of experience of a man to play against these ladies who never had that experience? Do you think it's possible that you have mental and physical advantages over them? Even with all of the hormones, is it possible that it's not really fair to women who have never had both experiences as a man and women?

That's the issue. Nothing about who you are or where you want to play. But how a Trans playing in a womens division can take away the money, sponsorships and scholarships. That's the problem. And that's not fair.

I spoke about this before and I'll repeat it. What is fair? What methodology would you implement to determine a person is allowed to compete in the female division of any particular sport?

and from Rastnav's post earlier:

And of course, the existence of both intersex and trans persons is incontrovertible. The various permutations of individuals who possess sex chromosomes that are not simply XX or XY shows that a solely binary distribution of sex does not actually exist. We know conclusively about androgen insensitivity syndrome wherein an individual with XY sex chromosomes may develop the secondary sexual characteristics of a female, and also strongly identify as a woman. Other genetic, epigenetic, and developmental factors can all result in a strong sense of gender dysphoria, that the body you have developed does not much your internal sense of your gender.

 

[Three Putt]

People have to remember that the solution can't be worse than the problem. Whenever this comes up someone will go "Well why have women's divisions?" Uh...companies have a lot of money invested in promoting disc golf to women. The sport has a lot of capital dedicated to promoting disc golf to women. Eliminating women's disc golf isn't on the table.

Telling women who are transgender that they have to play in the men's division because the "m" stands for mixed now is absurd for reasons that have been spelled out here. It is also not a solution.

Creating a separate "transgender" division won't work because you are talking about a very small segment of the population. There just simply are not going to be enough people to offer the divisions, so when two people sign up the the transgender division and you have to move them someplace...where do they go? If you say "mixed" then you missed the point of the previous paragraph.

To simplify the debate, there are two options here. You can leave things the way they are, or you can effectely ban women who are transgender from playing organized disc golf. Those are the options we have. We don't really have to debate "other solutions"; there are no other solutions. The things we seem to think are solutions will just drive women who are transgender away from the sport. I would think it would also send a message that will make the sport seem unfriendly to men who are transgender and they would be less likely to participate. It probably sends a bad message to the entire LGBTQIA community, so it would hurt promoting disc golf to more than just the transgender community.

Part of the disc golf vibe has always been the wide demographic; anybody can frolf. Race, gender, socioeconomic status, whatever. You showed up in the park with Frisbees? Let's frolf. Now we have this pro tour and money coming in, and NOW we are going to look at a population and go "oh, except you. You can't frolf anymore." For what reason exactly? Because of this pro tour and who might win that money? We are going to turn our back on who we have always been for that?

Solutions can be worse than what you perceive as a problem if you aren't careful. Disc golf had better be VERY careful right now.

 

[oddjob]

Is there a reason you only focus on trans women? There are trans men as well.

 

[foxdawg10]

People have to remember that the solution can't be worse than the problem. Whenever this comes up someone will go "Well why have women's divisions?" Uh...companies have a lot of money invested in promoting disc golf to women. The sport has a lot of capital dedicated to promoting disc golf to women. Eliminating women's disc golf isn't on the table.

Telling women who are transgender that they have to play in the men's division because the "m" stands for mixed now is absurd for reasons that have been spelled out here. It is also not a solution.

Creating a separate "transgender" division won't work because you are talking about a very small segment of the population. There just simply are not going to be enough people to offer the divisions, so when two people sign up the the transgender division and you have to move them someplace...where do they go? If you say "mixed" then you missed the point of the previous paragraph.

To simplify the debate, there are two options here. You can leave things the way they are, or you can effectely ban women who are transgender from playing organized disc golf. Those are the options we have. We don't really have to debate "other solutions"; there are no other solutions. The things we seem to think are solutions will just drive women who are transgender away from the sport. I would think it would also send a message that will make the sport seem unfriendly to men who are transgender and they would be less likely to participate. It probably sends a bad message to the entire LGBTQIA community, so it would hurt promoting disc golf to more than just the transgender community.

Part of the disc golf vibe has always been the wide demographic; anybody can frolf. Race, gender, socioeconomic status, whatever. You showed up in the park with Frisbees? Let's frolf. Now we have this pro tour and money coming in, and NOW we are going to look at a population and go "oh, except you. You can't frolf anymore." For what reason exactly? Because of this pro tour and who might win that money? We are going to turn our back on who we have always been for that?

Solutions can be worse than what you perceive as a problem if you aren't careful. Disc golf had better be VERY careful right now.

At one level disc golf has always been inclusive. On another level it is still a struggle and the population playing disc golf has always been somewhat homogeneous. We are still a sport that needs to be reminded to #RespectHerGame.

Hopefully the sport continues it's current trajectory. I give Nova all the respect in the world for laying out her soul and life in front of an audience that is mostly middle aged male and likely can't really understand. There is much support and love on this page which is great to see.

 

[chris deitzel]

Nova I'm not trying to be fake nice. I have trans friends. I have gay friends. I hang out with them with no judgement.

The only question I asked that matters was not answered by you.

Is it possible that with 30 years of experience as a man that you might have a mental or physical advantage over a person who was born female?

I understand you identify as a women, but your birth certificate will always say male. Because of that simple fact, is it fathomable that you might have an advantage over players who have not had the opportunity to live as a male?



I do appreciate you passing judgement on me and people like me just based on a question I asked though. Appreciate that level of openness and love.

 

[chris deitzel]

I spoke about this before and I'll repeat it. What is fair? What methodology would you implement to determine a person is allowed to compete in the female division of any particular sport?

and from Rastnav's post earlier:

Fair? I suppose you can only play in the division your birth certificate claims you as??? That seems like a fair solution for sports that have monetary and educational gains from playing.

???? Who knows though. We are just now starting to wade through the issue. I imagine things will evolve based on the "science" over the next few years.

 

[foxdawg10]

Fair? I suppose you can only play in the division your birth certificate claims you as??? That seems like a fair solution for sports that have monetary and educational gains from playing.

???? Who knows though. We are just now starting to wade through the issue. I imagine things will evolve based on the "science" over the next few years.

By your definition pro sports are only for young men who are at peak condition and everyone else is along for the ride. WhaT would you say if the 40+ division were eliminated and you were told to play MPO because age protected divisions are unfair and you are eligible to play MPO? It's a fair question.

The age protected divisions exist solely to allow everyone to compete at a fair level. You were born male and have the advantage of once being at a level to play MPO, so you may have an advantage over others in the 40 plus division. Your rating says you should be playing in advanced, so why should you be allowed to compete for cash?

 

[Nova P]

I understand you identify as a women, but your birth certificate will always say male.

Remember when I told you that you are out of your depth? You just proved it again.

My birth certificate says "female."

You want me to stop blowing you out of the water again and again? Stop coming at me like you know what you're talking about. You don't, and you have no idea how bad you are at this. Go read up on the Dunning-Kruger Effect and leave me alone.

 

[chris deitzel]

I am in fact 40+ and have played in MP40 as well as MPO. As my game gets worse and worse as I age, I've even considered playing some MA40 and Advanced events. While I may have 10+ pdga wins in the open division, I am also aware that as I age, my body is not at the level it was in my 20's and 30's. And most individual sports seem to offer age based divisions based on my lifetime experience in sports.

Pro sports are for anyone who was born to play in that division. That's my stance and will be. And most would call me a liberal. But this is an issue I can't get on board with.

Making people play in the division in which they were physically born seems to be only fair solution. And unfortunately, that solution, is the worst one for the trans athletes who don't identify with the gender in which they were born. But that was their choice to make a change. I don't think it should be a choice as to what sexual division you play in.

You can identify as whatever you want. But the fact remains that physically, they were born a different sex than they are now. And that most likely allows for mental and physical differences that happen naturally.

It's a rough situation for all. There are plenty of club sports and sports that don't offer female scholarships and payouts that I would have no issues with trans athletes competing in. But when you are taking rights away from naturally born women, something isn't right.

 

[chris deitzel]

Well you were still born a male. And that will never change. Even with hormones. Sorry but not sorry?

And I would have to think that spending 30 years as a male gives you an unfair advantage over those who have never had that option. That's all this is about.

 

[foxdawg10]

I am in fact 40+ and have played in MP40 as well as MPO. As my game gets worse and worse as I age, I've even considered playing some MA40 and Advanced events. While I may have 10+ pdga wins in the open division, I am also aware that as I age, my body is not at the level it was in my 20's and 30's. And most individual sports seem to offer age based divisions based on my lifetime experience in sports.

Pro sports are for anyone who was born to play in that division. That's my stance and will be. And most would call me a liberal. But this is an issue I can't get on board with.

Making people play in the division in which they were physically born seems to be only fair solution. And unfortunately, that solution, is the worst one for the trans athletes who don't identify with the gender in which they were born. But that was their choice to make a change. I don't think it should be a choice as to what sexual division you play in.

You can identify as whatever you want. But the fact remains that physically, they were born a different sex than they are now. And that most likely allows for mental and physical differences that happen naturally.

It's a rough situation for all. There are plenty of club sports and sports that don't offer female scholarships and payouts that I would have no issues with trans athletes competing in. But when you are taking rights away from naturally born women, something isn't right.

OK fair enough. But just as you accept age as a reality of life and take advantage of playing in a division that you can still win cash in, it seems fair to accept that people change in other ways throughout life also. And it seems fair to accommodate those changes as well to allow them to compete in an appropriate and fair way.

It is a complex issue for sure and we can go down many rabbit holes, but I did want to point out that we all go through changes. Hell, I would love to still have the physical tools I had 20 years ago with the knowledge I have now, but I have had to adjust my game accordingly.

The fact that I used to be able to throw 450 feet has absolutely no bearing on my game now, nor does it offer me any advantages over the competition. I have had to accept and adjust to the realities today.

 

[txmxer]

I suppose you can only play in the division your birth certificate claims you as???

My birth certificate says "female."

Well you were still born a male.

this is called "moving the goal posts"

Now, how are you going to adjudicate who can compete in FPx? Serious question. Nova provides you a BC that says "female". What next? What method are you going to use to exclude her?

"I just know" because she has been open? Not good enough.

 

[DeanMoriarty]

*insert MJ eating popcorn.jpeg*

 

[Three Putt]

Is there a reason you only focus on trans women? There are trans men as well.

There is no perception that men who are transgender get any sort of physical advantage at sports, so nobody cares what they do.

The "division you were born into" idea would make them play in the women's division, and they take testosterone so that would give them an advantage there. If people got their way with this, a man who is transgender could show up and play in the women's division. That would create a whole different can of worms except...nobody will be around to show that loophole. Someone who had to fight to be recognized as male is not going to show up to play in a women's division in disc golf. They will just quit.

 

[Nova P]

If people got their way with this, a man who is transgender could show up and play in the women's division. That would create a whole different can of worms except...nobody will be around to show that loophole. Someone who had to fight to be recognized as male is not going to show up to play in a women's division in disc golf. They will just quit.

Texas* forced Mack Beggs, a transgender male wrestler, to play in the division of his birth if he wanted to wrestle at all. In other words, they forced him to wrestle women. Of course he won. (He intended to go on to wrestle in college, so if he wanted to get experience and win titles and catch the eye of recruiters, he had to wrestle in high school.)

At least, he won on the mat, and in the process he demonstrated how stupid the transphobic position of the state is. He caught a lot of flack for it, but I profoundly respect his use of malicious compliance with a stupid rule to demonstrate the stupidity of a stupid rule.

(* Of course it was Texas.)

 

[BionicRib]

Here's a wrinkle. And nobody jump down my throat for having any sort of agenda please, because you have no idea how I view this issue…..

How would everyone feel if Paul Mcbeth decided he is a woman and dominated fpo and on the other side Paige pierce decided she is a man and randomly cashed at top tier tournaments?

 

[notapro]

Here's a wrinkle. And nobody jump down my throat for having any sort of agenda please, because you have no idea how I view this issue…..

How would everyone feel if Paul Mcbeth decided he is a woman and dominated fpo and on the other side Paige pierce decided she is a man and randomly cashed at top tier tournaments?

It's been brought up before:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140460

 

[BionicRib]

It's been brought up before:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140460

Meh…I've always stayed away from the water cooler on here, but thanks for the prerube.

 

[txmxer]

Texas* forced Mack Beggs, a transgender male wrestler, to play in the division of his birth if he wanted to wrestle at all. In other words, they forced him to wrestle women. Of course he won. (He intended to go on to wrestle in college, so if he wanted to get experience and win titles and catch the eye of recruiters, he had to wrestle in high school.)

At least, he won on the mat, and in the process he demonstrated how stupid the transphobic position of the state is. He caught a lot of flack for it, but I profoundly respect his use of malicious compliance with a stupid rule to demonstrate the stupidity of a stupid rule.

(* Of course it was Texas.)

local story to me. I believe Mack is wrestling at Life University now.