[Question] Potential tech standards changes?

[shawnsinclair]

I wanted to wait until the minutes from the spring summit were posted before bring up this subject. It was only given a couple of lines in the minutes but I would like to explain what happened. First here is a copy of what is in the minutes:

Harold discussed the sustainability of disc golf. He suggests the technical standards re-evaluate the high
speed, heavy weight drivers.
The USDGC and Innova would strongly support the initiative. The USDGC would be glad to be a test bed
if the association requested.
MOTION –Decker/McCoy
Motion that we direct the tech standards committee to look into the sustainability issue relative to our
equipment standards.
Motion passes unanimously.

First off this presentation was given by Harold Duvall co-owner of Innova Discs. Although he was on the agenda this issue that he talked about was not an agenda item???

I am going to paraphrase and summarize his presentation. He explained how disc golf has affected his life from being a world champion, disc company owner, course designer, TD and a few other items I don't remember. He pulled a hat out of a duffel bag for each aspect of the above items and set them on a stool. He said this stack of hats represents my life and career. He proceed to take a stack of max weight high speed drivers and threw the whole stack at the hats and knocked them off the stool. He then said heavy, sharp, and wide rim discs are ruining everything he has worked his entire life for and our sport can not sustain this model.

I was the only person who asked a question, which was do you have any data, evidence, or testing to backup your statements? He said "No and we don't want any". Then Bob Decker made a motion that is written above.

I have some questions.

1. Are you the players ok with the owner of the largest disc manufacturing company in our sport making a recommendation to the board about changing disc tech standards without all manufactures having a say?

2. What are the reasons for Innova making these recommendations?

3. Would our sport be the safer if all discs were 150 class and no sharper than a midrange? Would you want to get hit in the face with this disc by Ricky or Catrina?

4. Would our sport be better or worse it we went backwards in technology?

 

[the_pwnerator]

What....

So basically he wants to get rid of high speed drivers but gives no reason as to why?

 

[The Hammer]

So the co-owner of the company that has pushed high-speed drivers more than any other, has a problem with high-speed drivers. WTF. Was he high?

Great idea! Lets take out the only thing that has "wow factor" out of the game.

 

[5QU166Y]

And here I thought they were going to raise the max weight and make the permitted values of the flex test inversely proportional to the sharpness of the disc's rim. But seriously, didn't Japan try this nonsense once, and it didn't go over well?

 

[Halcón]

Considering the PDGA (supposedly) approved the Prometheus to 200 grams, this is odd. I like it, but it's odd coming from Duvall.

I've been talking safety around here for a while, and I'm not alone. This is good for the game, if only to put the issue front and center.

 

[DavidInIowa]

I am an unskilled noob and my opinion doesn't matter, but I also have a big ego so I'll share it.

If the future of disc golf at the professional level should be "real athletes" performing great feats of both skill and strength then high speed drivers make sense. I believe that this is best.

 

[joegraham]

What is "sustainability" to mean, and what will the committee actually do? Send us a survey?

 

[x-out]

1. Are you the players ok with the owner of the largest disc manufacturing company in our sport making a recommendation to the board about changing disc tech standards without all manufactures having a say?

2. What are the reasons for Innova making these recommendations?

3. Would our sport be the safer if all discs were 150 class and no sharper than a midrange? Would you want to get hit in the face with this disc by Ricky or Catrina?

4. Would our sport be better or worse it we went backwards in technology?

1. seems like everyone would be against changing standards, but if your the largest company, it will probably hit you worse than anyone else. think of all the stock they have that will not meet these standards.

2. they are an evil corporation that wants to destroy disc golf!!! probably not. they are probably thinking of safety and being an ethically responsible business. please reread and notice i said responsible business. responsible business is still a business.

3. i don't think anyone wants to be hit by any disc thrown by anyone. if the new standards mean a safer product in a worst case scenario, then i'd probably be on board. was there any mention of 150 only and shapes?

4. what makes you think this would be a step backwards in tech? maybe the new standards will have equal to or greater performance than what we currently have.

message board conspiracy theories want to paint innova as an evil corporation that controls the pdga and will kill disc golf. if they are making suggestions it means one or both of the following. they feel current standards aren't safe enough and/or they know something about design that hasn't been addressed.

 

[AndyJB]

And here I thought they were going to raise the max weight and make the permitted values of the flex test inversely proportional to the sharpness of the disc's rim. But seriously, didn't Japan try this nonsense once, and it didn't go over well?

Japan is still pretty strict about 150-class discs. Many of the courses you cannot even play with discs higher than 159 grams even for casual rounds...not sure how they figure it out if you are throwing them but whatever.

I dont know if it makes it safer at all. I also dont really follow the destroying the game logic. It is perhaps moving the game away from the original vision, but thats evolving...not destroying. My only thought would be because there is such a huge gap between touring pros and other tournament players, and then another huge gap between serious players and casual players as far as distance goes? I have noticed that more and more courses are getring away from the wooded, many obstacle formats and going longer...Turkey Creek in Colorado is a perfect example of a course that is just stupid long with hardly any obstacles. You basically just grip it and rip it for 18 holes of nonsense. The shortesr hole is somewhere around 350 and the longest is around 800. It was specifially designed as a "pro level" course...but no one ever plays there and this summer will be the first sanctioned tournament held there. I think Jared Roan, Pat Blazek and maybe Mitch Sonderfan are goinf to be the only top-level pros playing in it.

I digress. Without seeing or hearing the full presentation or even knowing what Innova is propo

 

[joegraham]

Do we want to go back to wooden tennis racquets, bamboo pole vaulting, no suspension mountain bikes, persimmon wooden golf drivers too, Converse Chuck Taylors? Hell no! Technology and innovation has driven the markets in all sports and we have the absolute limits allowable, so why change. I don't want to see 500 foot distance competitions.

 

[AndyJB]

Whoops..accidentally submitted that before I was done.

Actually proposing, we are all kind of left in the dark. Are they trying to force the sport to disx down or something? I just do not get what point he was trying to make. If any.

 

[Rondpitt]

Okay. I'll bite.

What exactly is the "sustainability issue"? Such a word is often used to describe bamboo flooring instead of oak flooring. :\ I don't follow what is UN-sustainable about a high-speed driver and why it is an issue.

Did he mean "safety" instead? Did he mean we can't "continue" to use them 'cause he (personally) got himself an issue? Did he play WordGameMumboJumbo so our board would shake their head yes?

The implications seem profound. Not a fan.

BTW, Shawn. Thanks for asking questions. Don't stop.

Ron "I got hat's, too" Pittman

 

[Cgkdisc]

Sustainability is a more encompassing word than the other 'S' word that manufacturers and PDGA officials do not wish to utter.

 

[x-out]

So the co-owner of the company that has pushed high-speed drivers more than any other, has a problem with high-speed drivers. WTF. Was he high?

Great idea! Lets take out the only thing that has "wow factor" out of the game.

i was told that dunipace was against the current standards from way back when to even allow the wide rim width. if the governing body says "x" is allowed and safe, then as a business they are almost forced to create something within those limits. if it was innova/dunipace forcing and begging for ultra wide rims it would be a different story.

 

[mashnut]

I think his point on sustainability is that it's getting harder and harder to find the land to put in courses that challenge advanced and pro level players. With high speed drivers it's fairly easy to throw 400', certainly easier than when the fastest thing on the market was a cheetah.

I'm not sure that going back in time is the answer, especially since it won't stop non-tournament players from throwing grooves and nukes (and it might very well lead to the end of PDGA sanctioned tournaments if TDs think they'll get a better turnout in an event that allows those drivers). That said, it would make a lot of the current and older courses more relevant if it was difficult to reach the 350-400' holes at the higher levels of competition again, and make it more possible to put in "championship level" courses on the generally smaller pieces of land we have available.

I'm only playing devil's advocate here, I don't think that the PDGA outlawing drivers at this point is going to be effective at all.

 

[shawnsinclair]

Chuck was there he watched the presentation. It was really bizarre. Nobody asked any questions other than myself. Harold didn't give any reasons or explain anything other than saying heavy, sharp, wide wing discs are ruining the sport and this model is not sustainable. That's it! Motion made, passed, then they moved on.

So far all good questions but I don't have any answers???

I am bringing it up because a change like this can have a huge impact on the sport and other manufactures that have invested $100,000's in molds, plastic, and time that would just be thrown out the door. I don't know if some of the smaller newer companies could overcome a hit like that.

Again this is all I know and I just want players to know that this presentation happened and that there was a motion to look into it further? All manufacturers should have a voice along with the players.

 

[turbosteve]

It is extremely odd and disturbing that he wants to make such a drastic change without having or wanting any data. Technical standards should be based on data and not one man's opinion especially in a case such as this.

 

[AndyJB]

Just go ahead and make everything a Teebird, eh?

 

[x-out]

It is extremely odd and disturbing that he wants to make such a drastic change without having or wanting any data. Technical standards should be based on data and not one man's opinion especially in a case such as this.

devils advocate because internet

did the pdga ever come up with data or reasoning for why they placed the rim width limit where it was/is/has been?

this thread and others make it seem as if a "players" association might be needed. a voice for the players.

f1 cars were faster back in the day, but they were too dangerous and have since been just fine. advances at the cost of safety don't mean much. especially when you are trying to go mainstream.

 

[mashnut]

FWIW, the motion was for there to be an investigation into the issue, not to immediately change the standards without any discussion.