Rules enforcement from top PDGA pros

[_MTL_]

<citation needed>

It drives me BATS that blanket statements like this are made regularly by people with some representative capacity for the PDGA about the opinions of top pros, touring pros, premier pros, or whatever appellation is your pleasure. I have never, formally or informally, been contacted by the PDGA, DGPT, TDs, or other parties regarding the availability of officials or literally any other preference. The only time I've been able an opinion to those entities is when I've gone directly to them to voice it. That doesn't constitute a sample worth making decisions over.

So what is the opinion of the Touring Pros Committee?

 

[fish58320]

So what is the opinion of the Touring Pros Committee?

It's under discussion. I initiated said discussion July 16 with the following e-mail (excerpted from larger e-mail):
"Enforcement of Rules: I've seen some chatter online about how pros don't enforce rules (a particular lightning rod was Nikko's perceived or actual time violations at The Preserve Championships). Generally we in the pro field don't have too many vigorous discussions, or are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to another player in expectation of receiving the same later, or to avoid uncomfortable vibes. As such, there aren't many warnings or violations issued, and it feels like kind of a big deal to call someone out. Should this be the case, e.g. are we comfortable with how the rule set is presently enforced? Or should pros set a visible example for viewers/fans/amateurs by being more "by the book"? What would be the PDGA's role in that vs. individual player accountability?"

 

[davetherocketguy]

It's under discussion. I initiated said discussion July 16 with the following e-mail (excerpted from larger e-mail):
"Enforcement of Rules: I've seen some chatter online about how pros don't enforce rules (a particular lightning rod was Nikko's perceived or actual time violations at The Preserve Championships). Generally we in the pro field don't have too many vigorous discussions, or are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to another player in expectation of receiving the same later, or to avoid uncomfortable vibes. As such, there aren't many warnings or violations issued, and it feels like kind of a big deal to call someone out. Should this be the case, e.g. are we comfortable with how the rule set is presently enforced? Or should pros set a visible example for viewers/fans/amateurs by being more "by the book"? What would be the PDGA's role in that vs. individual player accountability?"

I've already said this but bears repeating...If we want the world to take our sport seriously, then we need to take the rules we write ourselves seriously. WE...the PDGA. That's us. We elect these people to write our rules. Whats the point of having those rules if we aren't willing to enforce them? If it's such a big deal to call out someone because of a 30 second violation and it is rarely enforced then what is the point of having the rule in the first place? Get rid of it - it's better to not have it. So yes, pros need to set the example as does everyone else IMHO.

 

[Smigles]

Its so easy.

Whenever somebody else is throwing, you are the referee. If you are throwing, everybody else on your card is the referee.

I dont get what is so difficult. It's nothing personal, if somebody breaks a rule you call him. If said person takes it personal, that's even worse.

I think all golfers should play a year of Ultimate in a competitive league just to learn self refereeing.

 

[_MTL_]

Its so easy.

Whenever somebody else is throwing, you are the referee. If you are throwing, everybody else on your card is the referee.

I dont get what is so difficult. It's nothing personal, if somebody breaks a rule you call him. If said person takes it personal, that's even worse.

I think all golfers should play a year of Ultimate in a competitive league just to learn self refereeing.

The response to this to the many touring pros I've talked to about this is they are afraid next week they will be the subject of it due to some retaliation.

Um.....ok.....just don't break the rules?

 

[Smigles]

The response to this to the many touring pros I've talked to about this is they are afraid next week they will be the subject of it due to some retaliation.

"Retaliation" calls are a courtasy violation, call them on it right on the spot



I think the main problem is a sort of Karen-attitude of people who get offended when they get called. They must assume that they are above the law or something. I mean i understand in case of Trump playing golf. But i hope most of us are more connected to reality than mr. orange.

 

[Dingus]

Its so easy.

It really isn't. How easy is it to determine between a putt-jump and a jump-putt? Or how easy is it to accurately count down 30 seconds in your head? Are you a classically trained percussionist with perfect time keeping? Or do you whip out your PDGA approved timepiece to verify compliance?

I think most pros WILL call out clear, obvious rules violations that they notice. I don't think pros will call out subjective ones, like iffy stance violations and the 30 second rule. And I don't expect pros to inhibit their own competitive mindset by putting it on them to diligently observe every other throw on their card for violations.

 

[Jimb]

It really isn't. How easy is it to determine between a putt-jump and a jump-putt? Or how easy is it to accurately count down 30 seconds in your head? Are you a classically trained percussionist with perfect time keeping? Or do you whip out your PDGA approved timepiece to verify compliance?

I think most pros WILL call out clear, obvious rules violations that they notice. I don't think pros will call out subjective ones, like iffy stance violations and the 30 second rule. And I don't expect pros to inhibit their own competitive mindset by putting it on them to diligently observe every other throw on their card for violations.

:hfive: Having to time someone for the "shot clock" violation is quite different than briefly watching for a foot fault, etc.

 

[_MTL_]

IAnd I don't expect pros to inhibit their own competitive mindset by putting it on them to diligently observe every other throw on their card for violations.

The rules state you must watch others on the card due to the self officiated nature of the game.

So they are actually breaking a rule with this opinion.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, I'm just stating it as fact.

 

[Dingus]

The rules state you must watch others on the card due to the self officiated nature of the game.

So they are actually breaking a rule with this opinion.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, I'm just stating it as fact.

I wouldn't say that is a fact. They have to "watch" the other members. That doesn't require them to get into a good position and intently observe the foot placement on a jump putt. It requires a casual glance in their direction. Did I watch them? Sure I did, from my position 100' away. Did I get a good look? No, I was 100' away.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

The response to this to the many touring pros I've talked to about this is they are afraid next week they will be the subject of it due to some retaliation.

Um.....ok.....just don't break the rules?

MTL makes sense this time. The rules are even easier to follow than they are to enforce. There isn't a single one that's difficult to understand or implement.

I don't think fear of retaliation is the real problem (though I can't figure why people aren't ashamed to even claim that kind of cowardice). It's fear of confrontation. Everyone is trained to be a mouthy he-man in the virtual world but their pansy hearts fly aflutter at the prospect of some real life conflict.

 

[Jay Dub]

The rules state you must watch others on the card due to the self officiated nature of the game.

So they are actually breaking a rule with this opinion.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, I'm just stating it as fact.

I wouldn't say that is a fact. They have to "watch" the other members. That doesn't require them to get into a good position and intently observe the foot placement on a jump putt. It requires a casual glance in their direction. Did I watch them? Sure I did, from my position 100' away. Did I get a good look? No, I was 100' away.

Yes it is a fact. No matter how you want to spin it what MTL posted is definitely fact.
You claim it isn't a fact then proceed to give a bad example of how hard that "fact" is to do, so you know it's a fact.

 

[Dingus]

Yes it is a fact. No matter how you want to spin it what MTL posted is definitely fact.
You claim it isn't a fact then proceed to give a bad example of how hard that "fact" is to do, so you know it's a fact.

Based on the general rules of logic, I assumed he was saying the immediately preceding statement "So they are actually breaking a rule with this opinion" was a fact. Which it is not. Nobody is breaking any rule by doing a half baked job of "watching" their card mates. Nobody has to watch diligently, or closely, or to any standard. They just need to watch.

My statement was "I don't expect pros to inhibit their own competitive mindset by putting it on them to diligently observe every other throw on their card for violations." And this statement falls within the rules. You don't have to be so diligent in your observation that you are inhibiting your own game. You must merely watch. Even if poorly.

 

[Jay Dub]

OK, you're right their opinion is not breaking the rules.

 

[pearlybakerbest]

You must merely watch. Even if poorly.

This was what happened with the Nikko/Ricky foot fault incident at the Memorial. Ricky was a good 3-4 feet behind his marker on a fairway drive, and after Nikko calls him the other card mates shrug and say that they weren't looking well enough to second the call.

I don't know how you solve this. Paying attention to others effectively seems too subjective to codify.

 

[BillFleming]

I don't know the solution to Pros not calling each other on the rules or Pros intentionally violating the rules.

In the Preserve, Nikko was heard on video saying something to the effect of taking all of his 35 seconds. C'mon.....he knows he's only allowed 30 seconds.

Jump-Putts, the rule on stances/throws is the same no matter what.....one part of the body must be in the lie when the disc is released. Watch the DGLO tournament videos....see how many jump-putters completely leave the ground before they release the disc. They know they are doing it and they know it is a penalty.

In all those cases, the issue is "it hasn't been called before, so why call it now". It's become acceptable to take more than 30 seconds and to jump-putt by fully leaving the ground before releasing the disc; so no one is going to call it and players are going to continue to 'violate' the rules because they aren't being called/enforced - so who cares?

Do we need rules officials following groups? No, at least we shouldn't. Ball golf has rules and is self-policed. Many times pros call violations on themselves and each other. Yes there are times a pro ignores a rule and tries to get away with it....but for the most part ball golf is self-policed pretty well - better than disc golf. We just need the pros to start following the rules.

 

[roblee]

Watch the DGLO tournament videos....see how many jump-putters completely leave the ground before they release the disc.
.

Do you have specific examples?

I love the dynamics of Conrad's jumps. Watched a few frame by frame. All looked legal but impossible for me to know in real time. Thanks to who ever it was that taught me the , and . key functions.

 

[hiflyer]

There should be an amendment to the comp guide: Specifically "broadcast" pro events.

nn.nnn
All players MUST self officiate. Any players diregard for rules will be penalized with fines up to and beyond tour winnings, and a forfeiture of all winnings and sposorship funds gained from the same tournament. These monies will be relinquished to the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

 

[davetherocketguy]

There should be an amendment to the comp guide: Specifically "broadcast" pro events.

nn.nnn
All players MUST self officiate. Any players diregard for rules will be penalized with fines up to and beyond tour winnings, and a forfeiture of all winnings and sposorship funds gained from the same tournament. These monies will be relinquished to the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

How in the world are you going to enforce that equally across an entire field of players?

 

[Steve West]

How in the world are you going to enforce that equally across an entire field of players?

Make all the players enforce that rule.