Should ams receive payouts?

[iacas]

His beef was that it killed all of the tension that should have been there in the playoff. It makes a big difference when there are thousands of dollars on the line for a single shot.

This article is from 1962, and about golf and purse splitting for playoffs, and a lot of people were sanctioned in the 1980s (IIRC) about it and so it doesn't happen anymore (plus purses are huge now, so even second is a lot of $$$), but it's somewhat relevant:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1135005/1/index.htm

Edit: The purse splitting that was sanctioned was when a bunch of Champions Tour golfers would agree before the tournament even started to split the purse up. It was during the early days of the Champions Tour. Deane Beman was commissioner at the time and was enraged, and punished several players, and so on, and the practice was abolished with stiff penalties if you're caught doing it again. It made a sham of the entire competitive nature and turned it into more of an exhibition, and he hated that.

Again, all IIRC.

 

[smyith]

That practice of splitting on the side has really irked a TD of one of the biggest events.

Here are the comments on splitting that I was referring to:
http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1191359

what a pathetic thing to get so butt hurt about.

Why should he care what people do with their payout AFTER it's been paid out? It's now theirs, they can do with it what they please.

nuff said

 

[Dave242]

TDs worrying about splitting, are admitting that there is very little prestige in the winner having the title of "Winner of My Event" and that the important thing is the money. It is a statement on their part that they just don't think their event is very good in and of itself (including the total purse).

 

[krupicka]

TDs worrying about splitting, are admitting that there is very little prestige in the winner having the title of "Winner of My Event" and that the important thing is the money. It is a statement on their part that they just don't think their event is very good in and of itself (including the total purse).

I hardly think the TDs of the MSDGC thought there was little prestige in winning that event.

 

[Dave242]

I don't know.....it seems to me from this paragraph that they think the $1234 needed to split the pot evenly between 1st and 2nd is what determined the make or break value of the event to the winner and 1st place loser.

For our overall efforts, we want to see someone cry in the Maple Hill parking lot, with everybody giving him/her a pity beer, and we want to see someone like Chris Sprague almost break down winning the title for real. Twice now we're freakin chumps, this time thinking the whole time that someone was winning $5000 and someone else (i.e. PLAYOFF LOSER) a little over half of that. We busted our asses. We don't want to have to think about how it didn't really matter as much as we thought, right at that moment, that, as a TD, you dream about.

 

[Casual Squishy]

All the talk about splitting is a great example of how even though money is the catalyst the sport, paychecks are not the driving force behind competing for most players. For 99.99% of disc golf, after expenses traveling tournament DG is still a money losing proposition. Even for our touring pros that could be making much more money just staying home and working. And most players don't care one damn bit unless it effects their ability to get to the next tournament. Even then, it still falls far behind time off work, distance, and family obligations for determining which tournaments a player goes to. The majority of disc golf doesn't look at a tournament and think "How much can I make?" They look at a tournament and think, "Can I afford to play this one?" and "Can I make the time?"

 

[krupicka]

I see your point, but watching things from the message boards, I don't think I would characterize Jason as not thinking very highly of his event.

 

[Casual Squishy]

I don't want to be misread that I don't think trophy-only events will work. I've known of some that were quite successful. Those particular events had the virtues of being run on some very special courses, so the location itself was quite a payout.

It's also instructive that, over the years, those same events changed over to standard payouts.

That's pretty much dead accurate. Trophy only events can work under some circumstances and work well, and in other circumstances we'd probably lose 2/3 attendance. No rights or wrongs, just reality from the way in which disc golf has grown.

 

[Casual Squishy]

Am worlds .. Trophy only, guaranteed large field by the nature of the event, all players get more then fair value from entry fee, prestige factor for winning or even attending off the charts. Economically everyone goes home a loser except local players with no travel expenses and no one who actually goes cares. Ditto a rare handful of other nationally reknowned events.
Average first time C tier, mostly local player base, size of field and player pack variable, prestige largely determined by course and TD reputation, and the number of the players which in turn determines the size of the purse all of which determine the pre existing prestige going into the next year, which effects the player base once again. And then you have the size of the regional player base to factor in as well. It'd be pretty hard to make a success out of running a C tier trophy only event in the middle of Montana where if you did it in Charlotte on a quiet tournament week and maybe tied it into a charity you could easily sell out and have a waiting list.

 

[Kodachrome]

i'm jumping into something i know nothing about here, but hey; why not.

first off, i love how we're lumping everything together. as in "ams". brand us then determine whether or not we should get anything for coming to your event which, as mentioned before, is losing us money even if we win in all likelihood.

please note: i would never win. i suck.

i like the idea of just making it a good time. part of that good time is something, anything (**NOT a freaking participation trophy) that improves the quality of the rounds we get to play for you. maybe some cold water, some games like i saw mentioned earlier in the thread. take care of us so we can enjoy the ENTIRE experience, and don't give try to tell us we should just enjoy the opportunity.

nobody wants a trophy. a mini for that particular event? heck yes, thank you. a disc? absolutely. who the hell wants a trophy? give me something practical, it might even be CHEAPER than a trophy. a sticker. something i can show off? i don't care.

like i said, i don't know the first thing about organizing a tournament. but i definitely know what would make me feel better after losing hard in one. i suppose as you gain more experience you stop caring, but then you should realize that it's your perspective that's changed and the only person responsible for that is you - if you want more, then up your game and take the risk on bigger stuff. as for us little fish, it's nice to know that our attendance and participation is appreciated.

*shrug*

 

[Dave242]

nobody wants a trophy.

There are all sorts of motivations for playing. I just played a little 1 day C-Tier as a Pro Masters. I paid $60 to get in ($10 non-current fee) and the payout was $75 cash for first along with a handmade trophy.

The guy who came in second kept talking all tournament about how sweet the homemade trophy was. If I won, I would have tossed it as soon as I got home. The money would have been nice, but I went there expecting to lose it so that was no big motivator or disappointment for loosing....and added no pressure to perform well. I went there to have fun and to see how my game was holding up after not playing a tournament in 5 years (and not practicing in over that long).

I went home with a big smile on my face that day having had my goals met/surpassed......even after tin-cupping a hole and taking a 24 and then adding my score wrong on the last round (those 20 strokes cost me an easy win).

 

[Kodachrome]

fair enough - i guess i'm thinking more of a cheap plastic "thanks for participating" trophy.

if someone puts effort like that into it, i would be happy with the trophy.

 

[gstenger]

Sorry if I missed it somewhere in this thread, but I have a question regarding "payouts" for amateurs.

Let me start by saying that I have never competed in a DG tournament (I have 3 young children), but given the chance, I would love to someday. I used to compete as an amateur cyclist for many years. In cycling, we could receive cash prizes as amateurs. In my best season, I earned about enough to cover my entry fees for the year (approximately 50 races per year). Sometimes there would be "prizes", but more often than not, the prize list was for cash... even though it was substantially lower than the cash for the pros. Is there a set PDGA rule specifying how much amateurs can take and still be considered amateurs? I did a Google search, but I couldn't find it.

That said, I would be perfectly happy to compete in a DG tourney for trophies/prizes. But at my age I would be competing against masters. I also don't have any ambitions to move up the ranks and compete professionally.

Thanks!
Greg

 

[zenbot]

Paying out Ams in plastic is the way to go. I was able to try many more discs when I first started playing. I think it was very helpful.

 

[krupicka]

Amateurs can take $0 cash in PDGA sanctioned tournaments. Once they take a buck (in a sanctioned tournament) they are considered a pro. They can win stacks of plastic with no limit.

Leagues and unsanctioned events do not play into this.

 

[gstenger]

Amateurs can take $0 cash in PDGA sanctioned tournaments. Once they take a buck (in a sanctioned tournament) they are considered a pro. They can win stacks of plastic with no limit.

Leagues and unsanctioned events do not play into this.

Got it. Thanks!

 

[1978]

There are all sorts of motivations for playing. I just played a little 1 day C-Tier as a Pro Masters. I paid $60 to get in ($10 non-current fee) and the payout was $75 cash for first along with a handmade trophy.

The guy who came in second kept talking all tournament about how sweet the homemade trophy was. If I won, I would have tossed it as soon as I got home. The money would have been nice, but I went there expecting to lose it so that was no big motivator or disappointment for loosing....and added no pressure to perform well. I went there to have fun and to see how my game was holding up after not playing a tournament in 5 years (and not practicing in over that long).

I went home with a big smile on my face that day having had my goals met/surpassed......even after tin-cupping a hole and taking a 24 and then adding my score wrong on the last round (those 20 strokes cost me an easy win).

How do you take a 24? You have to try for that kind of score.

 

[Dave242]

I wanted to shoot my PDGA number - 24242. I almost did when I went 24, 2, 2, 4.

It was a Par-5 hole with the possibility of a 3 by laying up at about 230', then throwing about 340' to the basket (with the first 280' over OB onto a round green). The basket was sitting on a ~80' wide peninsula.

There was a strong headwind when we got to that hole, but I decided it would be fun to go for it despite the high risk. My first attempt over the OB did not make it, but my second did according to the spotters (pre-teen girls). When I saw my lie, it was touching the OB line.....but with the new/revised OB rules, it had no part touching the inbound side of the string.

So, I proceed throw a bunch more throws that either flipped over or hyzered OB (I suck in the wind) until I finally parked one.

It was fun pretending to be Kevin Costner for a few minutes.

 

[ScottyLove]

It was a Par-5 hole with ...

<Commence Thread Derail>

Par 5??? There are no par 5's in disc golf!!!

 

[simpletwist]

Some sort of recognition, be it a trophy, voucher, or merchandise for the top 3 makes sense to me. But I play for the fun of it. So no matter what the payout or lack thereof, it doesn't sway my decision to play in an event.

No vote for me because I'm ambivalent.