Snap Vs. Timing, Maxing at 350

[slowplastic]

I've been lurking here for a long time, and have learned so much in the process. But now it's finally time to post and try to get a bit more insight.

I've only been playing for a year, and luckily stayed away from all of the wide-rimmed stuff as a beginner. My distance gaps are pretty normal:
Putters 250ish stand still
Mids 270-290 stand still, 290-310 X-step
Fairway Drivers (Teebird, River) 320 stand still, 330-350 X-step

I have only dabbled with high-speed, which is a 175 star Vulcan that doesn't seem to act properly until 350+, and unfortunately my normal distance with it is around that mark but furthest shots have been just shy of 400', and that is not consistent at all. So really, the distance that matters is Teebird distance of 330-350.

I often throw from stand still for accuracy, and my X-step adds little distance, so it's only used for long mid throws or drivers. I use a slow X-step to only add rotation, not mess timing up. I use a power grip and try to get a pinch between my thumb on the flight plate and index finger. This is the biggest thing...I feel that if I squeeze the thumb down enough, that the disc "pops" out between those two fingers. However, I am unsure how to increase this pop.

To get the snap happening, is it something to do with overall timing, for example I could be starting my arm/elbow chop too early and that is preventing the snap from happening? Or since I am hitting that ~350 Teebird plateau, that means that fundamentals/timing are solid-ish, and that it's a further wrist extension/movement that will propel the disc out, while keeping a similar pull? I know I am not strong-arming...I used to...and I can now throw for hours and my arm doesn't feel a thing. But that still doesn't mean that my arm timing is perfect.

I suppose it's hard to describe since nobody else can feel how the throw feels to me, but I'm just trying to pinpoint what to work on...if I need to really adjust my elbow/arm timing after hip rotation, or if it's a finer adjustment of praying that I find the snap/wrist magic, or actively opening and springing my wrist at the end of the throw.

Thanks for any insight, sorry for the length!!!

 

[mmblink86]

i was stuck on that distance plateau for a solid 2 years. i would focus on: back-foot/front shoulder alignment with intended line, shortening your x-step, early rotation of hips and shoulders, and a strong balanced follow through on your front foot, finishing with your hips pointing at intended line.

also, think of ball golf and baseball. visualize those hitting motions from the hips perspective.

my average distance increased around 30' this year focusing on those principles.

 

[garublador]

Or since I am hitting that ~350 Teebird plateau, that means that fundamentals/timing are solid-ish, and that it's a further wrist extension/movement that will propel the disc out,

That's what it sound like to me, but I wouldn't assume your pull isn't worth reevaluating. All of the "hammer pound" and "secret technique" drills from DGR are designed to help people in your exact situation learn better timing. They work by showing you what it should feel like to throw with wrist extension and then you build everything around that feel. Most find that's much easier than trying to make a bunch of tiny mechanical and timing changes.

 

[blackcatsmith]

This is, to me the most enjoyable aspect of not only disc golf, but most every endeavor I choose partake in. The pursuit of the art of getting "better". May it never stop.
My advice would be to not limit yourself, label yourself, or lie to yourself.

 

[Mocheez]

NM...

 

[Highway Bill]

I don't think you necessarily want to increase the pop. A discernible snap on release doesn't always = more distance. A cleaner release is what you're looking for. Make sure your grip is snug and your wrist is cocked down as to align the disc perfectly with your forearm. This will keep the off axis torque (wobble after release) to a minimum. Keep that form through the hit.

Also, If you're throwing your putters 250' standstill, it sounds like you'd benefit from exploring higher distance lines with your faster plastic.

 

[scoopa]

Start focusing on the last second when the disc rips out. Make the disc explode out of your hand without slipping(audible snapping).

Focus on late acceleration with the arm.

I was so wrapped up into making sure I wasn't strong arming that I started "weak arming". It took me years to realize that. I would either just whip my arm loose with a tight grip, or not accelerate late.

Make that disc heavy at the end, make it REALLY force its way out. If done right you'll start getting a massive disc pivot.

Hips are good, shoulders are great, the arm action at the end is the DRIVE.

It sounds like you've got the fundamentals. Now work on the snap. Stay with narrow rims; its just easier.

I gained at least 50' of distance when this clicked.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks a lot guys, it's useful to hear things that I was feeling were the cases myself. To address a few things:

Hips/shoulder timing is definitely important. If the hips lead just right I feel that "elastic band" effect that my shoulders want to spring just after them. I also notice that adding ~20% more with my hips gives me way more distance than trying to throw >20% harder with my arm, as well the added arm speed mentality causes more potential OAT. As was said though, I need to keep in mind that arm is important and I can't slowly forget to use it actively (not just as a passive whip that follows hips the entire way). As was said with the baseball analogy...so true! Learning to push my disc golf drives out further has helped my baseball swing get more power more easily, I feel like I'm finally starting to learn the "key" to sports even though I've been playing sports for a long time! Funny how that works. It's kind of good that baseball swing and disc golf are nearly mirror images, so I don't mess up one sport with the other.

I guess "pop" that I was saying is not entirely the right word...occasionally I hear that pop of my fingers snapping shut, but that's not the goal I am aiming for. I'm more meaning that I think I don't have that snap on the disc, I feel it pivot between the index/thumb when I pinch hard (and that helps its spin), but I know I'm still not hitting the 350' Roc or 400' Teebird that is possible with the right snap.

The front foot balance and follow through are really good advice, I started getting that better a few weeks ago. I feel like my weight is all on my front foot...but my center of mass kind of behind it like if you look at how a MLB player swings in a "leaned back" way almost (but not that extreme). It helps me feel like I'm rotating around the front leg instead of rotating forward of it. When I focus on this rotation motion instead of forward, I get cleaner/more spin releases that result in a more stable flight.

The distance line comment is true as well. This isn't what my goal is (like I mentioned, guys can do straight-fllights with Rocs to 350 and Teebirds to 400 when they have the snap), but I do need to expand my distance shot repertoire. My 300' Roc throws are 10' high line drives that barely fade, my Teebird 350' is about 20' high minor hyzer flip that has subtle fade, or if released flat it will gradually ride to the right the whole way before a forward fade...it's a 163DX. My 170g Opto River is a 20-30 foot high hyzer flip that rides right a good ways and fades back to almost where I was aiming. I feel like if I hyzer flip my Roc to 20'+ in height that might add some distance, since it's not fading much for me on 300' throws. Oh, putters (like a beat Wizard) are just straight and 20'+ height, and look a little more nose-up than other shots...to the point where I can just see the flight plate.

I can feel the disc pivot when I pinch down just right and then it launches out. I'm not sure if this is still too early of an ejection of the disc...if at this point it's when people say the disc gets "heavy", and I need to hold on for a microsecond longer and use my wrist right as I feel the pivot. I'll have to go over the hammer pound/secret technique stuff again, now that I'm at the plateau that it was designed for.

Thanks guys, I appreciate that people on this forum really read things and take time to help (aside from the "what ____ should I get lulz????" type threads heh).

 

[slowplastic]

I think the two concepts that are missing for me are full wrist use, and holding on to the disc as my hand wants to go "sideways" but the disc is still moving forward. However, these two things are likely one and the same, that if I hold on that long, that the wrist will have to be used.

The disc follows a straight line from reach back, through hip rotation, and then elbow chop. At this point when I feel the grip pinch my arm is following more of a circular pathway and coming "around" to begin the follow through, and the disc which was moving in a straight line now wants to continue that straight line and be ejected rather than stay in my hand and follow around my body's axis. When I say that I feel disc pivot at this point, I believe I do...but I also don't think I feel it like someone throwing 400'+ feels it. It's hard to put into words when I don't have the comparison of the right thing to do. I think my issue is that I need to hold on to the disc, so that when my arm starts going from forward motion to an "around" my body motion, it exerts more force/snap on the disc for that microsecond longer to impart more spin/acceleration.

I don't know if to get this force on the disc I need to grip harder with my thumb/index, or if I need to wait a slight bit longer to accelerate my arm so that I can hold on at this point and accelerate through this point rather than at/constantly this point. This is one of those subtle things that I guess only experimentation can help with.

As for grip, my approach with the 4 finger power grip has been to use my middle/ring/pink to pull the disc into my palm at a mild/firm strength before reachback, and stay at this strength. This keeps the disc at my palm so it has somewhere to pivot from, but isn't a death grip so that it can come out cleanly without flutter. My index finger and thumb are ready to pinch, but I don't pinch hard until the elbow chop, and at this point I try to pinch really really hard for anything more than a medium length midrange throw. I've been worried that if I pinch too early it will affect how quickly/loosely I can use my arm, but on the other hand if I pinch hard from the reachback, then maybe that will add some more consistency.

 

[sidewinder22]

Think of the wrist and fingers as springs. They load into the power zone and spring out. There doesn't need to be much movement either, a tighter spring is a more powerful spring. An inch or two of wrist movement is all that is needed to apply massive force, think about the 1" punch. Reachback should be fairly loose or taut, you will see some pros don't even have the thumb on the disc until they start the forward swing.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, that is true especially when I think of putting. Barely any motion of the fingers/wrist imparts enough spin on the disc go make it carry, compared to just fall like a projectile that is shaped like a disc.

I suppose I should keep that loose grip at reachback and attempt to further add slight wrist motion at the "right" time. If it makes that much of a difference on a putt, it should add up a lot when the arm is already going at a driving speed. If that fails to work, then I guess I have those paragraphs of blabbering I wrote above to test out too.

 

[scoopa]

This is a great post:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25241

Also, when you learn to release it right you'll know it. You'll get a hard tug on the index finger and the disc will feel like a 10lb weight.

You are trying to put as much acceleration on the tightest spring possible to create the biggest bounce you can.

Either slam the wrist open or modify your pull to bring the disc's edge around. The first in my experience is easier to accomplish. It just requires good fundamentals and accelerating HARD right at the end. Pounding the hammer.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks very much for that link scoopa, I hadn't seen that thread before. It's very helpful and has some of the best illustrations I've seen. I've been aware of Beto's differing technique and why he is so pro-right peck drill, but that really helped put it in perspective. The right peck drill in the past took me from a huge X-step strong arming struggler for 300ft to stand-still 300 feet in one afternoon (with little consistency at that point), but that was more a re-evaluation of weight shift/rotation/hips rather than Beto's actual use for it, which is making a "rail" arc.

I definitely feel the hammer pound arc, with the imaginary weight outside of my hand...and that diagram really helped to see how the "rail" method would feel different. I also see why I wouldn't have understood this as well in the past...I mean I was aware of it, but not until you can at least feel how one of them is can you really understand the comparisons. It also makes sense that Blake states: "The hammer basically brings a lot of the force into the wrist extension and your goal is to hang onto the disc through the extension." This is the point I'm at and it reaffirms it.

 

[scoopa]

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24903&start=30

 

[Kodachrome]

you should not be actively trying to use your wrist except to keep it locked down so it can resist movement and build tension, IMO.

focusing on the hit is all well and good, but the hit is just what happens when you do everything before it correctly.

i'm no exceptional cannon, but i do throw farther than most people. what got me where i am distance-wise is basically everything before the hit and extension . . . as long as you are not actively stopping yourself, it's not gonna make a huge difference. curling your wrist or trying to impart extra motion will not do much, if anything. it may actually become a hindrance to the motion that is supposed to happen. it was something i also experimented with.

IMO, if you can throw a teebird 350', that's pretty good and definitely far enough to get full flight out of an understable high speed driver. maybe you had a freakish vulcan?

 

[slowplastic]

you should not be actively trying to use your wrist except to keep it locked down so it can resist movement and build tension, IMO.

focusing on the hit is all well and good, but the hit is just what happens when you do everything before it correctly.

This is kind of what I was wondering about...some people say that they slam the wrist/load it, and others say they "don't think they do anything with it", which would imply it's just a result of the other timing lining up. I guess if doing "something" more with it doesn't help...then my arm timing is likely too early and I have to play with that so that the hit "happens".

When I used to strong-arm my throws I'd get early grip slips all the time because it was physically impossible to hold on to the disc when moving my arm that fast that early, and now that doesn't happen...although obviously the disc is coming out before a full hit. That leads me to believe that I either have to make the hit "happen" with the wrist...or I have to accelerate slightly later so that I can hold on to the disc into the hit.

IMO, if you can throw a teebird 350', that's pretty good and definitely far enough to get full flight out of an understable high speed driver. maybe you had a freakish vulcan?

It's heavy at 175g and not very worn star. I've been using it as a learning tool to grip wide rims, and as a reminder to keep the nose extremely down. Up to 350' it goes straight with a very slight ride to the right before a dependable fade. When I get it 360'+ then it has a very aggressive turn to it at 1/3 to 1/2 into its flight, then fades back to straight or a bit left of straight. It gets the distance on a much lower line than the Teebird.

There's barely any distance holes on my local courses so I don't have a reason to spend money on slightly lighter Wraiths or Destroyers, but at least the Vulcan reminds me to keep the nose down and is a really definitive test for me to see if I am throwing with enough speed to get it to turn or not, since I'm right on the threshold for it. Next time I play with someone with some other wide rimmed drivers I'll see if I can give them a shot for comparison.

 

[Kodachrome]

That leads me to believe that I either have to make the hit "happen" with the wrist...or I have to accelerate slightly later so that I can hold on to the disc into the hit.

i would put money on that. trying to move your wrist to impart extra snap just isn't as powerful as accelerating faster, later. your wrist simply cannot create as much energy as your whole body. don't keep your wrist limp either though; just keep it down. maybe post a video demonstrating your throw and also your wrist positioning. good luck!

 

[slowplastic]

Just a small update:

I had the chance to play an 18 hole round today so I couldn't do an overhaul in field practice. I agree with you Kodachrome that likely a different timing to get the snap to happen automatically is probably what I need, but on a couple of tries to manipulate arm timing early in the round I wasn't feeling it, and I wasn't about to throw away my score because of it (field practice though!!). But, I did try to add a bit of extra wrist movement to my shots, and the difference was small but distinct.

With a minor wrist movement during the end of my throw, I had a standstill opto Core throw of ~310ft (with 10ft height), and I got an opto River out to 350-360ft on a hyzer flip at only 10-15ft height. All of my shots that I added the wrist movement to were easily matching my best/better shots of the past, but very consistently.

These throws along with the others of my round definitely are not indicative of a found "snap" and I didn't feel anything different other than adding some very small wrist movement, but it did make me feel pretty excited to add a consistent ~20ft to my average throw with little effort. I can't wait to pinpoint the issue and see my distances jump the 50ft+ that they should!

The nice thing with learning the techniques, is that every time you add/rebuild your throw it gets easier because you already understand the fundamentals and feel, and you just have to piece it together in a different way...and you know it's for the better.

 

[horsethief]

I can feel the disc pivot when I pinch down just right and then it launches out. I'm not sure if this is still too early of an ejection of the disc...if at this point it's when people say the disc gets "heavy", and I need to hold on for a microsecond longer and use my wrist right as I feel the pivot.

I've seen a lot of video of 350' teebird throwers, and IMO they all have basically the exact same problem: they rotate their shoulders open way too early.

I personally have gone through everything you are experiencing so I wanted to offer some insight. What you are feeling, could be described as a disc pivot, but it's quite a bit different from what you would feel during a "full hit." What is happening to you is: your shoulders are opening up early, and end up going backwards (away from the target) right around the time that your arm is getting to full extension. So wherever your hand is on the disc at the time, your shoulders are ripping your hand around really fast, and then ripping the disc right out from between your fingers.


On the flip side, the "full hit" type of disc pivot feels more like this: shoulders parallel to target, glide in, slide your elbow forward, POUND the hammer into a locked forward position with your thumb pointing right at the target. From this point forward, it feels like time nearly stops (like The Matrix) -- while all of this is happening in a fraction of a second, it all feels very controlled. From this locked forward position, you'll feel the disc bounce off your palm and begin to pivot in your hand. You can feel the disc fight out of your pinky/ring/middle finger's grip and exercise enough control to increase your grip in order to make it harder for the disc to pivot out. Simultaneously, you'll start to feel your shoulders/torso become the driving force on the disc. As the disc finally forces its way out from your lock fingers it will continue to pivot in your index/thumb lock but it will be driven by your torso/shoulders -- It feels like you're pulling sideways on the disc (target is at 12 o'clock, and it feels like you're pulling more towards 3 o'clock), and it will go flinging out.

Hopefully that will clear some things up for you? Let me know what you think

 

[slowplastic]

Thank you, I agree with lots of the concepts and ways of describing how things feel. I agree that I need to get to a point where I am pulling sideways on the disc (due to every hinge on my body swinging "around" at the exact moment of the hit), which will force the disc forwards/out at maximum velocity and with as much spin as possible from the pivot.

I think you hit on a point that would be easy for me to overlook when trying to find a new timing for opening my shoulders. That the elbow should be further forward. I agree with you that my front shoulder is likely already on its way back/around when my arm is swinging out, and this is what causes my inability to hold on to the disc for any longer amount of time.

I don't really use muscles in my shoulder/tricep to pull the disc closer to my right peck before chopping my elbow out...likely the disc is being thrown from my left peck or the center of my chest, although this is from me going through the motions/feel rather than direct video evidence. This however is exactly in line with how you describe 350ft Teebird throwers.

I'm going to watch some video now of pro's throwing drives so I can see where their elbows are before extending/chopping. To you guys who have broken this plateau, is there an actual "pull" of your arm/elbow forward simultaneous to the hip/shoulder rotation, to get the disc near the right peck position before chopping your elbow open?

Thanks again for that detailed post