Start hip rotation by your left knee or arm?

[azplaya25]

But it would be monumentally helpful to be able to just pay something like 40 bucks or whatever to see all this data for your swing, and then it would let you know what you need to do in order to increase your ability, based on YOUR body! It's soo cool!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K5wzHQqLvM

Just saved you $7

 

[SocraDeez]

So Emerson in this gif and some other pros, look like they are stomping their foot down more deliberately. Like a baseball swing. NOT a toe down, smooth, leg swinging, crushing the can type movement. But STOMPING their foot down from the air.

While a player like Simon, Eagle or Seppo just glides his lead foot through the X step, while more smoothly/gently doing a "crush the can" type move.

Yet both types of movements result in super long accurate throws. So why are we told we HAVE to crush the can and go toe down first, then heel? When I can clearly see pros stomp their whole foot down all at the same time and still throw super far and accurately? That's really confusing.

You misunderstand Crush the Can. It's not that it prescribes a specific foot strike sequence, like for example a very obvious toe to heel movement. (If I recall correctly, SW22 crushes the can a few different ways throughout the various iterations of Crush the Can on Youtube, with Crush the Can - Rebooted being the most direct to indicate a toe to heel sequence.)

The more fundamental lesson of Crush the Can is: literally crushing a can. It's simple and instructive and elegant. When you actually attempt to crush a can with your foot, you are forced to focus on the ground push required to crumple the can into the earth. Please go crush some cans. With your toes, arches, heels - whatever! Try to do it slow. Try to do it medium. Try to do it fast. With the foot oriented open to target. With the foot oriented closed to target. Work through which ways seem to allow for easier can crushing (i.e. toes vs arches vs heels vs slow vs medium vs fast vs foot open vs foot closed).

Really focus on the feeling of ground force you must produce in order to physically crush a real can. Do you feel this way when you plant to throw a disc? If not, work on incorporating the feeling into your disc golf swing. That's the most productive takeaway from Crush the Can, which is, again, ultimately about crushing real life cans.

 

[SocraDeez]

Try this: Walk down some stairs; unless Professor Xavier was your favorite school teacher, you're striking ball of the foot first as you descend. Why? Solve the riddle.

Another facet of the riddle:

I went on a canoe trip last week, which means that I was graciously afforded the opportunity to experience the singular pleasure of walking around barefoot on an Ozark gravel bar. As I walked about gingerly on the gravel bar - trying to avoid the sharp chert & trying to shake or out-walk the faint, antediluvian voice of a scoutmaster chanting " 'Be Prepared' is the motto of a true Scout" - I planted first with my heel on those sure-thing ground spots before slowly shifting pressure to the front of the foot as the toes came down.

Try it at home by creating any kind of uncertain footing - gravel, Lego minefield etc. You should naturally strike heel first. Then the rest of your foot kind of conforms to whatever surface awaits.

Why? Solve the riddle.

 

[azplaya25]

Another facet of the riddle:

I went on a canoe trip last week, which means that I was graciously afforded the opportunity to experience the singular pleasure of walking around barefoot on an Ozark gravel bar. As I walked about gingerly on the gravel bar - trying to avoid the sharp chert & trying to shake or out-walk the faint, antediluvian voice of a scoutmaster chanting " 'Be Prepared' is the motto of a true Scout" - I planted first with my heel on those sure-thing ground spots before slowly shifting pressure to the front of the foot as the toes came down.

Try it at home by creating any kind of uncertain footing - gravel, Lego minefield etc. You should naturally strike heel first. Then the rest of your foot kind of conforms to whatever surface awaits.

Why? Solve the riddle.

Seems like entire body is supported by the heel while the rest of the foot just help with balance. As long as you can get good solid contact with your heel then you will be able to stay upright. Similar to waking down the side of a steep hill, you dig your heels in to maintain traction. No idea what the biomechanics are behind this

 

[SocraDeez]

Similar to waking down the side of a steep hill, you dig your heels in to maintain traction. No idea what the biomechanics are behind this

Nice point, man! I think you're right that you go heels first down a steep hill. I wonder if it's natural to go toes first running up a hill? Not sure from the vantage point of the living room couch. But now I'm going to scramble up and down a couple hills on purpose on the course this afternoon.

Here's another example: crossing a small stream by jumping from stone to stone so as not to get your shoes wet. I naturally use all toes/ balls of the feet. Almost no heel contact. Why?

One more example: Jump from one foot to another. I can catch myself comfortably going toes to heel OR just toes. But if I try to land heel first, it's disastrous.

Why? Solve the riddle!*

*
I don't actually have the answers to this mysterious riddle. I just personally think it can be productive/ interesting (relative to disc golf swing theory) to think critically about common, natural body movements that we perform during the course of our daily lives. Why do I descend stairs a certain way? Why do I walk across uncertain ground a certain way? Why do I jump across small streams a certain way? I don't know, man, but I think it's fun/ worthwhile to stop and consider these things from time to time.

 

[SocraDeez]

Nice point, man! I think you're right that you go heels first down a steep hill. I wonder if it's natural to go toes first running up a hill? Not sure from the vantage point of the living room couch. But now I'm going to scramble up and down a couple hills on purpose on the course this afternoon.

Going down a steep hill, I naturally strike ball of the foot first with heavy toe curl toward the ground before gently lowering the heel. Going up a steep hill, it was all ball of the feet without much heel contact for me. Similar to descending stairs or hopping from stone to stone across a crick.

 

[jupiterboy]

Going down a steep hill, I naturally strike ball of the foot first with heavy toe curl toward the ground before gently lowering the heel. Going up a steep hill, it was all ball of the feet without much heel contact for me. Similar to descending stairs or hopping from stone to stone across a crick.

Put 70 lbs on your back and go out for a week and you'll learn to lace your boots differently for climbing and descending.

 

[SocraDeez]

New "Sling Shot Disc Golf" video-lesson:




Why is the rear-leg-knee drop/ drive disc golf swing instruction so seductive? Why is shifting-from-behind so hard?

One reason the squishing the bug advice might be so popular is that the real-shift-from-behind is hard to catch on video. It kind of looks like Drew's doing the motion demonstrated in the new "Sling Shot" lesson, right?

He's not, man. The rear leg moves like that because it loses pressure against the ground/ backside of the swing frame. At some point, I guess you get it or you don't.

 

[twistedraven]

Slingshot is self-taught by constantly comparing his driving form against Paul and Drew, and very passionate about his progress and what he's learned through his journey.

I don't mind absorbing information from a guy who's made the journey to 500 feet of distance by meticulously studying his form against two of the best in the business. I've found several of his videos very eye opening.

 

[SocraDeez]

For sure is lame to be accused of leading the youths astray, man.

seabas22: "I know I'm not a great speaker/presenter like the rest of you all, and not really my style."

Love the style! Love the basement sports laboratory. Love the hammers & door frames & pool cues. Love the Orioles gear. Love the sound of water bubbling in the background. (Always wondered: some kind of aquatic critters?).

 

[sidewinder22]

For sure is lame to be accused of leading the youths astray, man.

seabas22: "I know I'm not a great speaker/presenter like the rest of you all, and not really my style."

Love the style! Love the basement sports laboratory. Love the hammers & door frames & pool cues. Love the Orioles gear. Love the sound of water bubbling in the background. (Always wondered: some kind of aquatic critters?).

Thanks, the running water in some of the vids is from rainwater going into the sump pump. I try to time recording so the pump doesn't go off in the middle, that thing is loud AF.

 

[SocraDeez]

Thanks, the running water in some of the vids is from rainwater going into the sump pump. I try to time recording so the pump doesn't go off in the middle, that thing is loud AF.

This is the style I'm talking about. It's not actually a basement turtle tank home to a reptile named Frank like I imagined. It's not sexy. But gosh darn it, it's the truth. It's the way things are.

Slingshot is self-taught by constantly comparing his driving form against Paul and Drew, and very passionate about his progress and what he's learned through his journey.

I don't mind absorbing information from a guy who's made the journey to 500 feet of distance by meticulously studying his form against two of the best in the business. I've found several of his videos very eye opening.

That's cool, man. Glad that it's helped your swing. I've watched a few of the videos now, and you're right: he definitely has some good, enthusiastic disc golf instruction at times. I don't know how to politely say it: he's just wrong about this part of the disc golf swing. Explicitly wrong.

Some textual audio: "I turn the leg [rear leg] and now the weight is here [pointing at lead foot]. At this point, I am flat-footed; braced. [Pointing at the rear foot] This has balance and bracing. You can feel it. You can feel pressure there. The hips have been turned that way [open toward the target], and I am not over the leg [lead leg]. I am back. You are learning to use your leg to turn your hips. Power. 50 feet. 100 feet. Don't leave it behind."

He then breaks down a Paul McBeth clip in order to show the same thing, but this guy's just seeing shadows.

It's OK to be explicitly wrong about stuff. I am all the time. It's less OK to be explicitly wrong about stuff that you are Teaching. It's even less OK to be explicitly wrong about stuff that you plan to Teach and solicit payment for.

Let's be honest: it's not quite that he's just so passionate about sharing what he's learned, right?

And I love this one from Youtube user "Disc Golf Course Rental Calendar":

 

[RowingBoats]

Ya, this particular misconception is right in line with most of them. I think of it as the 'yoga-pose' fallacy of learning the swing. I see why he made the video, I see why he thinks he is correct, but its relatively simple to prove to yourself that its wrong.

It makes even more sense with his admission that he has built this by analyzing body positions, instead of building it from the feeling. If what he is saying in this video were true, the one-leg drill wouldn't teach you anything. I can do a little pump on my lead leg, with my rear leg entirely off the ground, and generate the weightshift from behind and the rear leg makes the same shape he is describing.

 

[twistedraven]

https://youtu.be/u90zsROhVKw?t=180

 

[dehaas]

This is the style I'm talking about. It's not actually a basement turtle tank home to a reptile named Frank like I imagined. It's not sexy. But gosh darn it, it's the truth. It's the way things are.



That's cool, man. Glad that it's helped your swing. I've watched a few of the videos now, and you're right: he definitely has some good, enthusiastic disc golf instruction at times. I don't know how to politely say it: he's just wrong about this part of the disc golf swing. Explicitly wrong.

Some textual audio: "I turn the leg [rear leg] and now the weight is here [pointing at lead foot]. At this point, I am flat-footed; braced. [Pointing at the rear foot] This has balance and bracing. You can feel it. You can feel pressure there. The hips have been turned that way [open toward the target], and I am not over the leg [lead leg]. I am back. You are learning to use your leg to turn your hips. Power. 50 feet. 100 feet. Don't leave it behind."

He then breaks down a Paul McBeth clip in order to show the same thing, but this guy's just seeing shadows.

It's OK to be explicitly wrong about stuff. I am all the time. It's less OK to be explicitly wrong about stuff that you are Teaching. It's even less OK to be explicitly wrong about stuff that you plan to Teach and solicit payment for.

Let's be honest: it's not quite that he's just so passionate about sharing what he's learned, right?

And I love this one from Youtube user "Disc Golf Course Rental Calendar":

I watched this video last night and as soon as he started talking about the back leg spinning to initiate everything going forward I had to turn it off.

 

[Arezaki]

Seeing the light

I have been really confused about the hip movement in the disc golf throw for a long time. I have of course been in the SW camp, but seeing a lot of videos of other coaches looking like they are "squishing the bug" made me doubt all of it. Who's right? After watching the video of Dr. Yeager (I finally watched it after knowing about it for a long time) that SW linked in Sling Shot Disc Golf's latest video, I am completely convinced what is right (link below). The debate as I see it now is between science (and SW) vs. amateurs of biomechanics (people who teach squishing the bug). That you should focus on the opposite of what many teach, external hip rotation, which apparently is a much more powerful movement than internal hip rotation, is completely new to me. Internal hip rotation is therefore a completely passive movement, an effect and not a cause. I think I understand this much better now. Keep spreading the word, SW!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4uDB1_nOA
The good stuff begins at about 08:30

 

[SocraDeez]

https://youtu.be/u90zsROhVKw?t=180

Great video. Here is the hard to see part:

That's the weight shift. Passed this point, Thomas Gilbert does not ever again create pressure against the ground w/ his rear foot during this swing.

The rear leg moves like that because it loses pressure against the ground/ backside of the swing frame. At some point, I guess you get it or you don't.

Here is a terrible analogy. I'm sorry but it's the only thing I can think of at the moment, and we have to work with what we got. Have you ever twisted up a curtain cord? Like really twisted it up? You know, as part of the Good Fight against Boredom?

When you release the pressure from your pinch and just let it go - pop! - the cord starts spinning pretty quickly as it releases all that tension you created by twisting it up. Try it again. But this time - actively rotate your pinch to the right as you release it. It doesn't work as well/ spin as fast. Why?

 

[twistedraven]

Great video. Here is the hard to see part:

That's the weight shift. Passed this point, Thomas Gilbert does not ever again create pressure against the ground w/ his rear foot during this swing.



Here is a terrible analogy. I'm sorry but it's the only thing I can think of at the moment, and we have to work with what we got. Have you ever twisted up a curtain cord? Like really twisted it up? You know, as part of the Good Fight against Boredom?

When you release the pressure from your pinch and just let it go - pop! - the cord starts spinning pretty quickly as it releases all that tension you created by twisting it up. Try it again. But this time - actively rotate your pinch to the right as you release it. It doesn't work as well/ spin as fast. Why?

Yes, he starts to de-weight the rear foot after the front foot's heal plants, and his weight linearly shifts forward, but he's initiating his hip rock/wing by lifting off his rear toes and driving his rear leg inward. In the video he's describing what he feels when he's doing this with words verbage such as foot to calf to knee to thigh to waist, and explicitly saying he's twisting his waist to generate power for his arm. You'd think a pro who has dedicated years of his life to perfect 600 feet of power would accurately know how to describe his throwing motion.

 

[RFrance]

Here's Ben Brewster talking about delaying the Hinge. To me it looks like this is what Emerson and Thomas are doing in their throws.

 

[sidewinder22]

https://youtu.be/u90zsROhVKw?t=180

Yes, he starts to de-weight the rear foot after the front foot's heal plants, and his weight linearly shifts forward, but he's initiating his hip rock/wing by lifting off his rear toes and driving his rear leg inward. In the video he's describing what he feels when he's doing this with words verbage such as foot to calf to knee to thigh to waist, and explicitly saying he's twisting his waist to generate power for his arm. You'd think a pro who has dedicated years of his life to perfect 600 feet of power would accurately know how to describe his throwing motion.

How does lifting off the rear toes drive anything? When the foot leaves the ground it allows everything to rotate freely/uninhibited.

I think Thomas is describing or analyzing what he sees happening, not necessarily what he is trying to do, "notice how my knees kind of tweak forward", he doesn't talk about trying to rotate the leg inward. In my Double Dragon Drill I talk about how the rear knee wants to kick inward.

Paige Pierce describing her throwing motion - focus is all lateral.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyV8411dObw&t=5m15s

Ricky Wysocki describing his hip motion - focus is all lateral.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pw-zQt5H2Dw#t=9m9s

Try to swivel your chair by spinning your rear foot/leg inward, vs rolling the foot inward angulating the shin/knee forward which rotates the chair/pelvis with a lot more force. Forces work in straight lines, not circles - which are the result of straight line forces.

Try kicking the can or ball while trying to spin your rear leg inward. This is Dion Arlyn 2011 World Distance Champ below.



Note how Eagle doesn't lean back and he gets over the front leg and doesn't spin his back foot/leg, so he his committing the cardinal sins of those that advocate spinning. You will never see a top pro intentionally make any kind of squishing the bug motion with the back foot.




This is Kristian Kuoksa below on 725' throw.