Successful Pay to Play Courses

[edfaits]

Pay to Play Courses seem to be the wave of the future... properties dedicated to disc golf with incentives for the course owners to make a positive experience for the paying customers. I'd like to get input on successful pay to play courses, and what attributes make those courses work financially.

I'll start with two great courses up here in New England that seem to be doing well: Maple Hill in Leicester, Massachusetts, and the Sabattus complex in Sabattus, Maine.

Both share some characteristics:
-Multiple courses to handle all levels of play. I'm pretty convinced that a course option easy enough for casual players is a MUST for pay to play to gain viable 'drop in' paying customers, and a challenging option is required to keep the course interesting enough for regulars to buy annual memberships.
-On site staff to "watch out" for the course, insure a positive and safe customer experience. Baskets and tee boxes are always maintained, fairs mowed and rough trimmed. Both have well stocked pro shops with knowledgeable and friendly staff. I've seen a criticism of Maple Hill on this forum, but that's definitely not ever been my experience and I've played the course over 20 times.
-Buzz. The parking lots are always busy, packed on nice weekends and not empty even on rainy weekdays. Lots of tournaments, leagues, and events to pull in people. Signature events are nice too but I don't think they are a key to success attracting "paying" crowds for the rest of the year. Success seems to be a self-perpetuating cycle.

I'd like to hear about other courses around the country (world!) that are economically viable as pay to play, and what characteristics you think contribute to their success.

 

[DavidSauls]

One question would be, how do you define "economically viable"? I'm assuming it doesn't include the land costs. Does it include a profit---or enough profit to earn the owner a comfortable living from the course?

Two that I haven't played, but come to mind, are Blue Ribbon Pines, and Morley Field---the latter, I believe, being a public park leased to a vendor.

 

[sidewinder22]

Pay to Play Courses seem to be the wave of the future... properties dedicated to disc golf with incentives for the course owners to make a positive experience for the paying customers. I'd like to get input on successful pay to play courses, and what attributes make those courses work financially.

I'll start with two great courses up here in New England that seem to be doing well: Maple Hill in Leicester, Massachusetts

Attributes typically require making money from something other than disc golf, i.e. Maple Hill is also a tree farm which helps financially, or in most other cases just generous owners that don't break even.

 

[edfaits]

One question would be, how do you define "economically viable"?

Certainly not "getting rich", even "disc golf rich". I'd define economically viable as being able to pay all the bills and staying in the disc golf business for years to come. If it's supplementing the income with another business and it works as a business model that doesn't interfere with disc golf I'm all for it.

It is especially a challenge in regions that have to deal with ice and snow, basically making disc golf a seasonal business. Maple Hill opens back up after the Christmas Tree season, but I'm guessing paying customers are few and far between in January through March. Staying opening may be more a service to the membership.

 

[ru4por]

I am not sure I have ever heard of an unsuccessful pay to play course. By that I mean...there are plenty of P2P courses around here. They range in skill level and amenities. They are all used and crowded during peak times.

 

[edfaits]

I am not sure I have ever heard of an unsuccessful pay to play course. By that I mean...there are plenty of P2P courses around here. They range in skill level and amenities. They are all used and crowded during peak times.

Makes me want to make a road trip to Michigan next spring! P2P are still fairly unique in Massachusetts and Connecticut. The "tourist" region in Maine seems to be getting a couple of good new P2P courses in every year now. Plus they have lobster.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I am not sure I have ever heard of an unsuccessful pay to play course. By that I mean...there are plenty of P2P courses around here. They range in skill level and amenities. They are all used and crowded during peak times.

Most of what you're referring to are public parks that charge park entry fees, and in many cases, additional DG fees on top of that. They are P2P... but they aren't privately funded. I don't know to what extent they actually need to be economically self-sufficient. While DG brings in a lot of money for those facilities, I think it can only do so because the cost structure is shared by so many other things in the park.

I think it's very tough for a privately funded course to be economically self-sustaining with only DG related activity.

Even if it didn't close down for other reasons, I think it was just a matter of time before Ted & Lydia would have had to close Bonnie Brook. I wasn't their bookkeeper, but I have a hard time believing that place would have been able to stay open for several more years.

Sunny Brook only worked because any fees for DG were gravy for an operation that had all sorts of other stuff going on there.

I guess that's my point... DG by itself is a going to be a struggle at best. I think the key is sharing the cost burden with other activities.

 

[Gblambert]

The Flying Armadillo in the Texas Hill Country has been open for a couple of years now and is doing well financially. There are two 18 hole courses on the property and both were designed to accomodate players with varying skill levels. The larger course has blue, white and red tee pads so everyone from newbies to experienced players can have a fun, challenging round. The smaller of the two is a fun, themed, putt-putt type course with holes averaging about 100 ft. Man-made hazards like a lighthouse, roller ramp, sunken basket, Alamo replica, etc fill the course and provide fun obstacles to throw around. Aces are common on this course and all of the baskets are outfitted with solar lights for night rounds.

In addition to the courses, there is a fully stocked pro shop made from a repurposed airstream-like travel trailer and staffed with knowledgeable employees. Disc golf lessons are available onsite from local pros and a primitive camping area is located in the middle of the mini course. There is also a 4 story event pavilion designed for hosting tournaments and to provide amazing views of both courses from the top level.

There's a fun, eclectic vibe to the property, in part due to the abundant metal sculptures, wood carvings, mosaic tile and stained glass pieces that can be found in the pro shop and on many holes. The Dillo is surrounded by lots of free, well designed park courses, so we felt like it needed to offer an experience above and beyond what the other courses provide, as well as offering relatively inexpensive greens fees and annual memberships. Increasing traffic, pro shop sales, and tournament bookings all point to a bright future for the Flying Armadillo.

 

[UP Mountain Man]

More Like "Pay To Have" Than "Pay To Play" A Private Course

Rollin Ridge in WI appears to be doing well. I would attribute some of that to the fact that they have a clubhouse with Pro Shop, food, and alcohol. And proximity to population base.

Can't imagine a private course being profitable without a lot of diversification. Food, drink, gear, lodging, tournaments, leagues, full service for every possible need. NO WAY a $5 or $10 green fee can come close to covering a fraction of costs. IMO the bar has been set way too low for greens fees.

I own a private course that is not pay to play at this time. But even if it was pay to play, the only days that would come anywhere near being profitable would be the days that I took off and didn't go to my course. Because those days cost me less...

Reality is, charging a nonminal $5 green fee would probably cost me more than letting people play for free. For reference, I live an hour away from my course. And my course is hours from a population base.

Fortunately, I didn't go into this for the $$$, I'm doing this because I love disc golf, and I was able to acquire a suitable property, and build some holes, and share my love of the game with my family, friends and new friends I have yet to meet. While leaving a positive mark on this planet after I'm gone.

I sure wish a petty and jealous local was correct about me being a billionaire dg course owner becoming a famous trillionaire off of of my courses SIGH!

 

[ru4por]

I think I am merging the ideas of P2P and private.

 

[UP Mountain Man]

Looking at public pay to play courses, Madison WI comes to mind. They also appear to be having success, and as a visitor to the area, I've noticed improvements to the courses since the city implemented PTP. The county does a good job too, IMO

 

[da Crippler]

Our local course (Pioneer Trail Park) went p2p this year, and a few things happened. Attendance dropped dramatically. Some people got angry and boycotted the course. Leagues and tourneys were banned at the same time so no one ran any leagues this year, and a lot of new players who came to the sport in the last 4-5 years just quit playing. The local club disbanded. None of the money collected so far has gone back into course maintenance, and players are expressly forbidden to do ANY maintenance on their own. The only positive is that it kept the riff raff out, so no more broken trees and branches, no vandalism, no trash everywhere. After the new Eric McCabe course goes in next year, PTP will probably be completely abandoned, which is a dirty shame because it's a great course. P2P may be a good thing for some situations, but implementing it here brought the disc golf community to its' knees.

On another note, be very careful when planning courses on public land, especially public parks. All it takes is one a$$hole hater to screw things up. Private courses are the future of disc golf.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Makes me want to make a road trip to Michigan next spring!

Shameless plug for my buddy's courses at Wild Haven in Manton (just north of Cadillac). You won't be disappointed, plus you can camp and play at night too! Hitting Wild Haven and Flip City will leave you with a very positive impression of our state...

 

[ElementZ]

Looking at public pay to play courses, Madison WI comes to mind. They also appear to be having success, and as a visitor to the area, I've noticed improvements to the courses since the city implemented PTP. The county does a good job too, IMO

I think that's pretty debatable... I think making an entire city P2P was a pretty lame thing to do and I know I'm not alone. It's one thing to make a private course P2P, but to make a public course P2P is much more questionable. It's literally like charging parents for kids to use a playground, a basketball court, a soccer field, etc... that'd be unthinkable yet somehow it was justified for disc golf. It's a deterrent for newer players, especially for a sport that prides itself on being inexpensive.

 

[dr.chainslove]

P2P/private is awesome, but I'll share a cautionary tale. We had a short run at a P2P in Louisville, the heralded Coyote Trace. It was on it's way to becoming a top 20 course on this site (4.64 at 21 reviews). I would have gladly given $200-$300 for an annual membership. Sadly, the riffraff caused its demise after maybe 6 months. The owner was an awesome guy but he couldn't keep up with the rule-breakers (showing up without a tee time/permission, littering, acting like idiots, etc). Once he kicked out a few bad apples, one of these vindictive dip****s alerted the county officials who then tried to rope the owner into some costly re-zoning BS. I don't know if this was the exact reason for shutting it down but I think they were simply overwhelmed with the traffic and liability concerns (maybe much like the Flyboy situation?).

With this in mind, I applaud the private course owners who probably endure way more struggles than we think to keep their course open. Put some cash in that donation box every time!

 

[DavidSauls]

The Flyboy situation was a bit different....though some poorly-behaved, rules-ignoring disc golfers contributed to it, too.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Looking at public pay to play courses, Madison WI comes to mind. They also appear to be having success, and as a visitor to the area, I've noticed improvements to the courses since the city implemented PTP. The county does a good job too, IMO

Was talking to Horsman, and he seemed to think Madison's public parkP2P model was working pretty well. I would say the same is quite true in SE Michigan.

All the current "park run" P2P courses in this area are thriving, with various improvements and/or expansions happening at nearly all of them on just the last two years..., so they obviously see them as attractions worth investing their resources in.

There are basically no Private P2P courses in this area. I mentioned the two most recent examples in my earlier post.

That dichotomy leads me to believe Public and Private courses may need to consider rather different models for P2P to be "successful."

 

[DavidSauls]

That dichotomy leads me to believe Public and Private courses may need to consider rather different models for P2P to be "successful."

A public course might have a very low threshold for "success"---to take in more money than the cost of taking in that money. All the rest of the expenses are the same as if it were free to play.

A private course on a private commercial facility, such as a golf course or ski slope, might only have a slightly higher threshold. They need to cover the costs of installation, and whatever maintenance is needed for the disc course, that wouldn't be done otherwise. It still shouldn't take a lot of traffic and income for that.

Once you get to the point of having someone on payroll just for the disc golf, the bar is considerably higher.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

A public course might have a very low threshold for "success"---to take in more money than the cost of taking in that money. All the rest of the expenses are the same as if it were free to play.

A private course on a private commercial facility, such as a golf course or ski slope, might only have a slightly higher threshold. They need to cover the costs of installation, and whatever maintenance is needed for the disc course, that wouldn't be done otherwise. It still shouldn't take a lot of traffic and income for that.

Once you get to the point of having someone on payroll just for the disc golf, the bar is considerably higher.

All excellent points. And I know I'm preaching to the choir, on this point, but...

There's HUGE difference between a private course that's a:

a) Commercial entity (whether a standalone course, or an added revenue stream for a larger, entertainment complex type of dealio), like NGCT, or combo ball/disc courses, and...

b) Labor of love, "I wanted to make a course of my own, it'd be nice if it didn't lose me too much $$$," à la any number of some of our most outstanding courses (e.g. Flip City, Stoney Hill, Harmon Hills, etc.)

I'm sure you nor Chris would be upset if Stoney Hill actually turned a profit, and you guys have been doing this quite a while now... have you even come close?

Another key point someone made earlier was, PROXIMITY TO POPULATION.
That's really essential for the volume it takes for economic sustainability. It also drives up the cost of the land immensely. Finding a suitable piece of property near a large population that's cheap enough to support a self-sustaining course has got to be the biggest hurdle by far. :\

 

[Jimb]

What about Woodland Valley in Limerick? They've never been too busy when I've been there, but added the third course since I started visiting the area several years ago. Something must be going right for them (I hope). The disc selection in the clubhouse was pretty sweet every time I've been there.

Pay to Play Courses seem to be the wave of the future... properties dedicated to disc golf with incentives for the course owners to make a positive experience for the paying customers. I'd like to get input on successful pay to play courses, and what attributes make those courses work financially.

I'll start with two great courses up here in New England that seem to be doing well: Maple Hill in Leicester, Massachusetts, and the Sabattus complex in Sabattus, Maine.

Both share some characteristics:
-Multiple courses to handle all levels of play. I'm pretty convinced that a course option easy enough for casual players is a MUST for pay to play to gain viable 'drop in' paying customers, and a challenging option is required to keep the course interesting enough for regulars to buy annual memberships.
-On site staff to "watch out" for the course, insure a positive and safe customer experience. Baskets and tee boxes are always maintained, fairs mowed and rough trimmed. Both have well stocked pro shops with knowledgeable and friendly staff. I've seen a criticism of Maple Hill on this forum, but that's definitely not ever been my experience and I've played the course over 20 times.
-Buzz. The parking lots are always busy, packed on nice weekends and not empty even on rainy weekdays. Lots of tournaments, leagues, and events to pull in people. Signature events are nice too but I don't think they are a key to success attracting "paying" crowds for the rest of the year. Success seems to be a self-perpetuating cycle.

I'd like to hear about other courses around the country (world!) that are economically viable as pay to play, and what characteristics you think contribute to their success.