Tail Marking - feedback wanted

[loki the trickster]

Incorrect. You can do that now under the current rules, with tail marking you cannot.

How exactly do you figure you can not? If you use the rear edge of the disc to mark a lie and the disc is just barely inside the circle but just a sliver is out side of a painted line for the circle if you mark you lie you marker is now outside the painted line.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Historically, changes have been made to rules and this one in particular to solve problems. The required mini came about to solve the problem of some players taking advantage of flipping the disc more than once. Note that in the 1982-3 rule book and before, your lie was the circle the diameter of a disc behind the mark. As a side note, you had to plant on the tee pad within 12 inches behind the front line upon release AND have both feet on the pad at the time of release, i.e., stand & deliver.

In the next rule book (1986), they changed your lie to 15 cm either side of the centerline behind the mini. So 30cm wide LOP which happens to be the max width of an approved disc. Note that they forgot to pin down how far behind the mini you needed to plant upon release. (Oops!). However, perhaps 1 meter was considered the default behind the mini because you had to plant within 1 meter of the front line upon release (extended from 12 inches in 1982).

In the next rule book (1990), the lie behind the mini was changed to our current 30cm with a "no width" LOP. No change in this rule in the next 1997 rule book.

The next rule book (2002) incorporated the speed of play rules temporarily put in place for the 1999 Worlds by Competition Director, Mark Ellis, because the format was to play 4 courses, 4 times per day with 3-somes. This way, up to 432 players could get 8 preliminary rounds played in 4 days. Providing the option to leave your thrown disc on the ground as your marker was seen first, as faster than marking with a mini, and second, a nice strategy option to maybe get back a bit more from a vertical obstacle or water/mud.

Nothing in this rules area has changed since 2002. Now, we have the proposal for tail marking to solve the problem of two lies and as a side benefit would then allow the player to pick up their thrown disc and still get the benefit of its marking location which is not currently allowed. My suggestion made earlier that goes beyond tail marking, pretty much integrates all of the incremental changes made over the years:
- Your thrown disc can still be the mark without touching it: Speed of play
- If you touch your thrown disc, you are replacing it with another disc: Prevents disc flipping
- Back edge of thrown disc is front of lie: Sometimes more space for stance or throwing motion vs marking in front.
- Return to 21 to 30 cm width for line of play behind mark: Regains original tradition and easier for players to hit mark
- No minis required (but could be optional): One less special item needed for rec play

 

[Pbmercil]

How exactly do you figure you can not? If you use the rear edge of the disc to mark a lie and the disc is just barely inside the circle but just a sliver is out side of a painted line for the circle if you mark you lie you marker is now outside the painted line.

That's not how the proposed rule change works. Under the new proposed rule the rear edge of the thrown disc and the rear edge of the marker are the same location. Only one possible lie under the new rule, the current rules essientially allow you to pick between 2 lies of your choice that are a disc diameter apart.

 

[loki the trickster]

That's not how the proposed rule change works. Under the new proposed rule the rear edge of the thrown disc and the rear edge of the marker are the same location. Only one possible lie under the new rule, the current rules essientially allow you to pick between 2 lies of your choice that are a disc diameter apart.

If thats the case then how exactly will it be faster and more accurate to mark a lie as compared to now? This will lead to more miss marked lies and far greater confusion.

 

[curt]

He's suggesting that it will save time because people won't generally mark their lies.

 

[Horsman]

Incorrect. You can do that now under the current rules, with tail marking you cannot.

Incorrect, you cannot tail mark your disc

 

[coupe]

How exactly do you figure you can not? If you use the rear edge of the disc to mark a lie and the disc is just barely inside the circle but just a sliver is out side of a painted line for the circle if you mark you lie you marker is now outside the painted line.

Maybe he actually read and comprehends the definition of tail marking:

"you align the tail of the mini with the tail of the
thrown disc.

The thrower already has the option to use the thrown disc as the marker, so if a sliver of the thrown disc is outside the painted line for the circle, his marker is already outside the painted line. Since tail marking means that the REAR EDGE of the mini is aligned with the REAR EDGE of the thrown disc, therefore, marking with the marker DOES NOT move the lie outside the painted line.

 

[Future_Primitive]

So this isn't an April Fools thread nor is it a troll thread from the good Doctor to make us reconsider the American Disc Golf Tour? This is a real agenda item for the PDGA board? Holy smokes, how many people does the PDGA have working on making this mole hill into a mountain. Surely we can find a real issue to deal with or maybe this is just a way to ignore more substantial issues with the sport while pretending to being doing some actual work.

 

[coupe]

Incorrect, you cannot tail mark your disc

Actually, you can ... you just have to pick up your thrown disc before placing your mini or move your marker disc before the ensuing throw, then mark the approximate lie at the tail of the position established by the thrown disc.

 

[coupe]

So this isn't an April Fools thread nor is it a troll thread from the good Doctor to make us reconsider the American Disc Golf Tour? This is a real agenda item for the PDGA board? Holy smokes, how many people does the PDGA have working on making this mole hill into a mountain. Surely we can find a real issue to deal with or maybe this is just a way to ignore more substantial issues with the sport while pretending to being doing some actual work.

The Rules Committee has a long and distinguish history of promulgating ill-considered mole-hill-into-mountain-based rule changes with little to no prior input from the wider membership. Probably because they feel they need to "DO SOMETHING" to justify their existence.

Personally, I consider the fact that they're actually soliciting input from the wider membership beforehand instead of just blundering stupidly ahead as usual to be a positive development.

 

[JC17393]

So this isn't an April Fools thread nor is it a troll thread from the good Doctor to make us reconsider the American Disc Golf Tour? This is a real agenda item for the PDGA board? Holy smokes, how many people does the PDGA have working on making this mole hill into a mountain. Surely we can find a real issue to deal with or maybe this is just a way to ignore more substantial issues with the sport while pretending to being doing some actual work.

To be fair, this is a single item among many that are a possibility for discussion by the rules committee, not the PDGA Board. There's no hint, aside from this trial balloon thread, that this is a priority or will make the cut to actually be discussed, let alone get out of committee and be considered for inclusion in the rule book.

The only time being "wasted" is by a couple volunteer committee members and by those of us participating the thread. We can debate the merits of the idea without the hyperbole making this into more than it is.

 

[JoakimBL]

I don't think that "this how we have always done this So change would be hard" is ever a valid srguement against change. Either the status quo is acceptable or it isnt, and how long the status quo has been in place has nothing to do with its validity.

In a vacuum you are right. That argument doesn't work if it is the only thing to consider. But it isn't. Change has consequences, and if those consequences are worse than the problem it tries to fix, then change is not a good idea. In this case, the "problem" is negligible. It mostly theoretic the begin with, and I have never heard it being a concern with anyone at all.
The problem having players change the way they are doing something that is basically second nature to everyone, is very real. It will take a substantial amount of time before players will stop making marking violations. If the problem even is a real issue (and I contest that it isn't) then there are still less intrusive ways to fix it.

 

[JoakimBL]

looks like a lot of stuff in there to me.

Yes but it's mostly minor corrections. I applaud that for sure, because a lot of it is needed. But there are numerous real issues that needs fixing, which doesn't seem to be addressed.

 

[Stardoggy]

How about just mandating front marking of the disc, and not allowing the originally thrown disc to be the marker? One lie, all the time.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Id rather say screw minis. makes disc selection a little more important as well as bag setup.

 

[teemkey]

There is a big difference in "play it where it lies" when comparing ball golf with disc golf because of the difference in a legal stance. In ball golf a player can legally stand at any angle to address the ball; whereas in disc golf a legal stance is defined as having a supporting point behind the marker disc on the line of play, and the line of play is defined as a line from the target (or mando) through the center of the marker disc.

There is also a big difference in marking. In ball golf the ball is marked only so the ball may be replaced exactly where it was before being picked up. In disc golf a disc is marked to define the lie and thus the legal stance, and the disc may not be replaced.

Essentially, stance relative to lie and marking are not the same in the rules for disc and ball golf, and there are good reasons for the difference. The differences are practical and necessary due to the difference between smacking a ball with a club and throwing a disc.

Although I'm not a great supporter of mini markers in general, as long as the definition of a legal stance remains the same, I think the current method of marking is an acceptable solution for our rules.

 

[Dan Ensor]

Nose marking gives me an advantage. As long as I carry enough discs I don't have to use the one I just threw. Sucks to be a minimalist.

 

[Horsman]

How about just mandating front marking of the disc, and not allowing the originally thrown disc to be the marker? One lie, all the time.

Whoa now, you're sdounding too much like the adgt now

 

[JC17393]

Whoa now, you're sdounding too much like the adgt now

Or the PDGA pre-2002. Mandatory use of a mini on every non-tee lie used to be the rule.

 

[BrotherDave]

Id rather say screw minis. makes disc selection a little more important as well as bag setup.

If you get rid of minis you effectively make one disc rounds illegal.