Talent Out Pacing The Money?

[DiscFifty]

Look at Jomez. I told people in my 2017 year-end SpinTV presentation back in December that they'd eclipse us in 6 months (we had 63k subs, they had 48k at the time), and they just hit 70k. Why?

Well imop it's not because of an "engaged fanbase", their facebook marketing isn't exactly breaking any records with only 21k likes. (SpinTV has around 13k likes.) C'mon, you can't really expect to think Jomez out paced you guys due to "media savvy". It's because of one thing only...superior content. Their content has pretty much hit the broadcast quality bar. Disc golf fans now have content we can share with our non disc golf sports buds and be proud to show it off. Gone are the days were we embarrassed to show off our sport due to heavy breathing commentators, cheesy jokes, cheesy production, etc, etc.

We don't need Super Bowl viewership numbers to be relevant, we just need an engaged fanbase. That's what gets advertisers these days, not viewcounts.

Probably because of the slow growth and the fact that viewership is still comprised of mainly players of the sport. As the non player viewership percentage grows you should be able to have more diverse advertisers which would make those viewcount numbers more important.

 

[JC17393]

Probably because of the slow growth and the fact that viewership is still comprised of mainly players of the sport. As the non player viewership percentage grows you should be able to have more diverse advertisers which would make those viewcount numbers more important.

The bolded is non-existent outside of maybe family members of the players in the videos. And I think it will remain non-existent for a long long time. People who don't play the game aren't watching the game on youtube and it would be foolish to think they ever would.

Viewcounts help with ad revenue from Google/Youtube. Subscriber count is what gets outside advertisers interested. In other words, CCDG might have made some Adsense money on that Philo albatross clip (1.2+ million views) but potential advertisers are looking at their 53K subscriber count to determine whether their audience is worth investing in, not what one viral video did.

 

[DiscFifty]

People who don't play the game aren't watching the game on youtube and it would be foolish to think they ever would.

wow..had to quote that because that's surprising to read from someone in the business. I've show family and friends who don't play the game Jomez coverage and they were glued. I typically show off the last few holes of a close tournament btw. Almost everyone has thrown a frisbee at some point in their life, don't see why you wouldn't get more non-player viewership if the content was marketed toward them.

 

[DanJon]

Right now it's marketed towards disc golfers and many of us don't even watch every tournament.

How do you expect that to change with non-disc golfers?

 

[DiscFifty]

Right now it's marketed towards disc golfers and many of us don't even watch every tournament. How do you expect that to change with non-disc golfers?

It's an interesting discussion for sure. I would like to see the PDGA get together with Jomez and do some kind of social experiment to really push one of their videos to a much wider audience and gather some metrics on the results.

 

[BlueMonk]

"Mainstream TV" mentality holds us back. It's the past, it's dying. If we're putting effort into getting on cable TV we're wasting our money and time tbh. It's a format that doesn't accept us, doesn't really fit us, and basically opens us to ridicule from people who don't understand what they're looking at.

They don't understand what they're looking at because we have to bend our media methods to fit their formats, and like I said our sport doesn't play well like that.

OTT and social are our future. I've said it before and I'll say it again, eSports is the model we need to be looking at. Obviously there's some similarities to traditional cable TV, but the format and look are far more flexible which allows the fanbase to galvanize and promote from within.

Look at Jomez. I told people in my 2017 year-end SpinTV presentation back in December that they'd eclipse us in 6 months (we had 63k subs, they had 48k at the time), and they just hit 70k. Why? Because it's their format, their distribution, our sport. It doesn't matter what some CBS Sports big wig says or thinks, it's something that's made-from-scratch and wholly ours. We take techniques from other sports that mesh well, and add our own spin to it.

We're actually ahead of the curve in terms of presenting content to a dedicated fanbase. Cable companies are flipping over into internet based media conglomerates (well most already have completed that transition tbh) to mimic what we're doing. We don't need Super Bowl viewership numbers to be relevant, we just need an engaged fanbase. That's what gets advertisers these days, not viewcounts.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I'm a semi-pro musician who tends to follow trends in the entertainment business and this seems to be the way things are going in general. TV is no longer what drives the culture. Neither is terrestrial radio. Getting content on-demand is what people now expect.

The barrier to entry is very low now. In the music world, artists can record, produce and release music themselves on the cheap, whereas in the past they would have needed a major record label to sign them. Consequently, we have information overload. There's so much content out there that whatever you do gets lost in all of it. So becoming huge is still almost impossible, but for different reasons.

So instead of trying to take over the world, the path to success today seems to be catering to your core audience and staying true to what they want. There's money in that. I can totally see this being the logical path for professional disc golf coverage.

 

[JC17393]

wow..had to quote that because that's surprising to read from someone in the business. I've show family and friends who don't play the game Jomez coverage and they were glued. I typically show off the last few holes of a close tournament btw. Almost everyone has thrown a frisbee at some point in their life, don't see why you wouldn't get more non-player viewership if the content was marketed toward them.

Do those family and friends continue to watch other videos unprompted by you? As in, because they watched that one video you showed them, did they become regular viewers of disc golf tournament videos? Because that is what I'm talking about in terms of non playing viewers...people seeking it out on their own rather than because a player (like you or I) suggested or even forced them to watch something in particular.

The truth of the matter is that our internal numbers need to get bigger before we can consider growing the external ones. If we really want attention and eyeballs from outside of the sport, the best way to do in terms of videos is to get viewer counts high enough that the videos hit the front page of Youtube as "trending". Otherwise, the only people watching the videos are people seeking it out intentionally. People who don't play aren't doing that.

 

[JTacoma03]

Well imop it's not because of an "engaged fanbase", their facebook marketing isn't exactly breaking any records with only 21k likes. (SpinTV has around 13k likes.) C'mon, you can't really expect to think Jomez out paced you guys due to "media savvy". It's because of one thing only...superior content. Their content has pretty much hit the broadcast quality bar. Disc golf fans now have content we can share with our non disc golf sports buds and be proud to show it off. Gone are the days were we embarrassed to show off our sport due to heavy breathing commentators, cheesy jokes, cheesy production, etc, etc.



Probably because of the slow growth and the fact that viewership is still comprised of mainly players of the sport. As the non player viewership percentage grows you should be able to have more diverse advertisers which would make those viewcount numbers more important.

This would be a persuasive argument but the wrench is that Jussi and I both contracted Jomez to produce for SpinTV multiple times, so in a way it's the same content.

...and honestly SpinTV pushed the content envelope more than any other channel, so it's not a quality/content comparison.

Facebook is almost irrelevant. I'm going to guess you're older than me (I'm 30) if Facebook is the social platform that you're selecting as the measuring stick. Younger millenials and Gen Z are abandoning facebook, and they're the target market for advertisers. YouTube, Insta, and Snap are where you want to be if you want to advertise to people under 30 right now. Facebook is for mom and dads generation(s).

Getting content on-demand is what people now expect.

The barrier to entry is very low now. In the music world, artists can record, produce and release music themselves on the cheap, whereas in the past they would have needed a major record label to sign them. Consequently, we have information overload. There's so much content out there that whatever you do gets lost in all of it. So becoming huge is still almost impossible, but for different reasons.

So instead of trying to take over the world, the path to success today seems to be catering to your core audience and staying true to what they want. There's money in that. I can totally see this being the logical path for professional disc golf coverage.

Spot on. My YouTube is a hybrid of production based channels (audio and video), guitar nerd stuff (MusicIsWin, Phillip McKnight, ThatPedalShow, Andertons, etc.) and Disc Golf. This is happening in all of those industries.

Media is evolving in a way that can't be reverted. The control is in the people's hands now, Media has been democratized. It was an oligarchy before.

The truth of the matter is that our internal numbers need to get bigger before we can consider growing the external ones. If we really want attention and eyeballs from outside of the sport, the best way to do in terms of videos is to get viewer counts high enough that the videos hit the front page of Youtube as "trending". Otherwise, the only people watching the videos are people seeking it out intentionally. People who don't play aren't doing that.

Very true. This is something that I've shifted my thinking on over the past few years. I'm almost completely the other way, where we don't really need to even seek to grow externally, it will be a byproduct of pure culture growth.

It's like driving down the street and seeing your neighbor throwing a party - with warm inviting lights in the windows. You want to be there. People will find the sport, just like we all did. We have to be balanced in preserving the history and underlying culture of the game, while evolving and refining it as time goes on.

It's kinda like Field of Dreams, but I'd add a word, "If you strategically build it, they will come."

 

[lyleoross]

I've left MSM behind. They are losing ground every day to YTub. Some of the best, and most accurate news comes in podcasts. It won't be long until the same happens for sports. Indeed, I watch no sports on tv, it's all online.

I was perusing videos this week. Last year, in a raging flame war with Jamie, I won by the way , we were looking at numbers of views. We were talking numbers in the 50,000 range. Go look today. The numbers have already shifted, in one year. I'm seeing bigger numbers, closer to 70,000 and I swear I saw a Worlds or something like that that was huge. I can't even write the number, I'm doubting what I read, it was so high.

 

[lyleoross]

BTW - it's also impacting women's. Their growth is bigger than men's. They doubled their numbers IIRC, whereas men have only seen a 20% increase. That's it, I'm buying all the stock in women's coverage that I can get. I'm gonna be rich, rich, rich!

Start with BSF.

 

[DiscFifty]

...and honestly SpinTV pushed the content envelope more than any other channel, so it's not a quality/content comparison.

A while back I would agree with you, but for whatever reason..Jomez is now the standard that users are comparing other disc golf related media to and I tend to believe a big part of that reason is the quality of their production.

Facebook is almost irrelevant. I'm going to guess you're older than me (I'm 30) if Facebook is the social platform that you're selecting as the measuring stick. Younger millenials and Gen Z are abandoning facebook, and they're the target market for advertisers. YouTube, Insta, and Snap are where you want to be if you want to advertise to people under 30 right now. Facebook is for mom and dads generation(s).

Now you have me confused, as I've been addressing the merit of YouTube from the start. I was pushing the importance of "view count numbers" and you were pushing more for "engaging the user". So perhaps I should defer to you on this and ask you exactly how you define "engaging the user", because at the end of the day Jomez, CCDG, Spin, etc, you guys are just making videos for us to watch.

When you say Facebook is for the old farts and Youtube, Insta, Snap is where the young kids go, I TOTALLY agree metrics indicate that is an accurate trend for general demographics, but surely you can't ignore the 30+ disc golf age group as that is where much of the sport's history is. Typically the older age groups are targeted because they have more money to spend, but perhaps in our sport the younger newer players are the ones spending the most money. That would be an interesting stat to view, age vs money spent, etc.

Appreciate the dialog, thank you for commenting. It's fascinating to read and learn about the various aspects of the sport on and off the course.

 

[DiscFifty]

Do those family and friends continue to watch other videos unprompted by you? As in, because they watched that one video you showed them, did they become regular viewers of disc golf tournament videos? Because that is what I'm talking about in terms of non playing viewers...people seeking it out on their own rather than because a player (like you or I) suggested or even forced them to watch something in particular.

I get that and I assumed that what you meant, my point was..if the material was presented to them (a non disc golf player advertising campaign) surely you would get some new users who are not players. A few years back, I don't think the media production was good enough to warrant showcasing the sport to non players, but I think we could be at a point where it just might be. That Salient production on Espn3 (was it 3??) was a start..but even that was lacking in production and overall excitement and I doubt that made any long term disc golf viewers.

 

[araytx]

Wow! Those are some interesting stats. I had no idea. It's awesome to see the sport grow but I think it's about time the PDGA started reaching out tontryband wrangle some moneybinto disc golf. I dont k ow how and I've only been olayong for a couple years so save all the snippy comments please. But they're our governing body right? IDK but its a two sided thing. Great to see our sport growing and the level of play getting to where its at/ they deserve more.

See, I am totally opposite on that thought. I don't see "getting sponsors" as the PDGA's role. Perhaps the word "professional" in the name of the organization is still being a problem, but more than 75% of members (probably 80% by now) are Amateurs. If someone needs to "go out and search for more sponsors", then that should be the role of the Players Association -- so I guess the pros might want to consider upping how their association works.

 

[Grippenripp]

See, I am totally opposite on that thought. I don't see "getting sponsors" as the PDGA's role. Perhaps the word "professional" in the name of the organization is still being a problem, but more than 75% of members (probably 80% by now) are Amateurs. If someone needs to "go out and search for more sponsors", then that should be the role of the Players Association -- so I guess the pros might want to consider upping how their association works.

Maybe it is the job of the player's association. I dont think the PDGA should necessarily be getting the player's money. I think they should be out getting more money funneled toward the sport and helping grow it that way. I think maybe if the platform were a bit bigger than the Pros could be getting more money for themselves a bit more easily. I'm new to this sport so I may have some things messed up but it seems like this is what NFL, MLB, MLS, PGA..... are doing for their sports.

 

[DavidSauls]

The PDGA has actually squandered some resources trying to drum up major sponsors, in the past.

The presumption is that it's a reasonable task---that there's some way to entice major sponsors to pony up major money, if only someone (PDGA) would do it right. But it's more likely that disc golf won't attract a lot of eyeballs, not matter what someone does, and thus can't attract big-time sponsors and money, so the PDGA should spend it's efforts and resources elsewhere.

Or perhaps that spending them elsewhere---further building the pro tour, or grass roots, or scholastic, or juniors---that eventually the prospects will change.

 

[lyleoross]

Do we really think it's true that none of the eyes watching disc golf on YouTub are non-player eyes? And how do you define that? For example, I ran track and field in high school and club track in college and grad-school. I watch track and field on some occasions and watch it all in the Olympics. Where do I fall in the metric? Am I a participant, even though I've not raced in twenty years, or a fan?

Why did they put the EO on TV in Finnland if no one watched it but players? Are there enough players there to make it a viable sell? Or do we only count the American market?

Why are disc golf highlights on ESPN? Are they counting on those 70,000 views to plug in and see it?

I think it's a little more nuanced but admit, don't have enough information to really assess.

 

[DavidSauls]

Good points, but we're all mostly speculating. I'm not sure that anyone thinks that none of the eyes are non-player eyes. My own guess is that they're a small percentage, though.

 

[TimSyl]

Do we really think it's true that none of the eyes watching disc golf on YouTub are non-player eyes? And how do you define that? For example, I ran track and field in high school and club track in college and grad-school. I watch track and field on some occasions and watch it all in the Olympics. Where do I fall in the metric? Am I a participant, even though I've not raced in twenty years, or a fan?

Why did they put the EO on TV in Finnland if no one watched it but players? Are there enough players there to make it a viable sell? Or do we only count the American market?

Why are disc golf highlights on ESPN? Are they counting on those 70,000 views to plug in and see it?

I think it's a little more nuanced but admit, don't have enough information to really assess.

Lyle has some good points, AND he's a Tottenham fan so he can't be all bad. I watch soccer often. The only time I played was in PE 40+ years ago. Should advertisers/sponsors discount me? I realize soccer and disc golf are two very different sports, but the point is perhaps there are some non players watching.

 

[lyleoross]

Lyle has some good points, AND he's a Tottenham fan so he can't be all bad. I watch soccer often. The only time I played was in PE 40+ years ago. Should advertisers/sponsors discount me? I realize soccer and disc golf are two very different sports, but the point is perhaps there are some non players watching.

The fact that you're a fan of... football... means you have to be all good!

I played too, but it was all club, high school through college. I coached and refereed for years. When folks ask me why I watch soccer I tell them, because any sport that requires twenty touches, on average, to score a goal, teaches folks to work together better than most things. That is, I'm selling my sport to other Amercians by focusing on its beauty.

Your comment adds a huge level of nuance. How many folks picked up a disc a few times and threw it at a basket and now kind of check things out? I get asked about the discs I carry all the time. And I always tell the askee to go to YouTub and look; I admit I do it with a dorky intensity. I figure, one at a time, one at a time.

 

[brutalbrutus]

I see non-players come into the live chats all the time. Unless someone is genuinely interested and says something very positive, a significant part the chat crowd tends to treat them very negatively even when just asking a straight up normal question.

It usually starts with..."What am I watching?" An obviously hostile question...:\