I thought they clarified that Simon was unaware of the mando, but his shot sucked and he made the Mando by accident.
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- Thread starter discallday
- Start date
I thought they clarified that Simon was unaware of the mando, but his shot sucked and he made the Mando by accident.
jsc430
Double Eagle Member
This is not what happened. His high hyzer shot was purposeful. He was CTP and ended the hole with a birdie. I've watched it a couple times, looks like missed the mando to me.
jsc430
Double Eagle Member
no because video footage can't be used on review.
They did talk about it after one of the card mates questioned it. They could not say for sure if he made it or not so, as the announcer said, they gave the benefit of the doubt to the player and ruled he did make it.
They also pointed out that video replay is not permitted and the players on the card needed to make the ruling alone.
I didn't go back to look to see if he made it or not, the video might show he missed it but that was how it was ruled at the time.
Commentary must have been referencing something else then.
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Makes sense to me. Nobody could call it out for sure, so it was in.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
None of them saw it. I don't even know who pointed out the throw might have been errant. If I recall, Simon said he didn't even see the mando. Courtesy violations for all.
If Simon beats Paul by one... :wall:GoldeyeGolf
Birdie Member
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None of them saw it. I don't even know who pointed out the throw might have been errant. If I recall, Simon said he didn't even see the mando. Courtesy violations for all.
18 month suspensions all around.
_MTL_
Flippy Flopper
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None of them saw it. I don't even know who pointed out the throw might have been errant. If I recall, Simon said he didn't even see the mando. Courtesy violations for all.
Simon, on the Matt Dollar thread about it, said basically three things.
1. I had no idea it was there. I'm orange red color blind and didn't see it.
2. It's never been there before.
3. We only had two days to get ready for three courses with travel in-between.
If it was in the caddy book, he should have known.
It's true, and FWIW, this is the very first thing he said in the post MTL references. "It's my own fault for not knowing." He didn't try to say that because of those 3 points it makes it ok, I think he was just explaining why he would even make that mistake to begin with.
So, anyhow, Terry also posted a screen cap in that thread where somebody had some footage from BEHIND the mando, and it CLEARLY looks like it inadvertently made the mando, probably by a yard or two. The argument for/against a penalty was moot. However, it's definitely a discussion worth having to think about whether video evidence and a different process should be used for this situation in the future.
It happens all the time it seems, for whatever reason there are touring pros who simply don't familiarize themselves with the caddy books. Take notes, use a highlighter, ask for clarifications ahead of time, and glance at the caddy book before each hole.
http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/808-rules-qa#qa-24
http://www.pdga.com/rules-school-mandatory-update-80402 - Section B
Official answer is, "ehhhhhhhhh, should have defined the mando better"
loki the trickster
Birdie Member
To simons defense.... he has played the course and tournament how many times?
How many times has he throw the big hyzer on that Fairway?
Yes its definitely simons fault for not knowing before he threw the shot. I do however think that that most players dont think twice about a caddy book when they have played the tournament multiple times.
I think a argument can be made that the mando was difficult to easily see with it marked on the base of a tree in the shade and with rainbow assortment of flags on the course. Again it is simons fault for not paying attention.
Didn'tSeeThatTree
Bogey Member
I think the card showed excellent judgment.
What if it played out the other way? It was a close finish between Simon and Paul, and the extra stroke(s) Simon would have had if they ruled he missed the mando would have tainted the finish.
I agree that Simon should have known better and not put his card mates in that position.
What if it played out the other way? It was a close finish between Simon and Paul, and the extra stroke(s) Simon would have had if they ruled he missed the mando would have tainted the finish.
I agree that Simon should have known better and not put his card mates in that position.
esdubya
Double Eagle Member
Nice job on splicing in the FPO coverage - would love for this to become the new standard.
Apparently the mando was a new addition to the hole this year, so I don't think there is a "he's played the course how many times and he still didn't know" argument to be made. Doesn't excuse his not reading the caddy book and noting the mando on his own, as the info was provided to him and it wasn't as if the book and the marking on the tree weren't clear (yes, he's colorblind but there were still flags marking the DZ near the tree to alert him).
Regardless of that particular incident, the mando itself seems poorly executed by the tournament. Whether it was a new addition to the hole or not, at the very least they should have anticipated that there might be problems identifying throws that miss the mando and put a designated spotter under that tree. The more apparent problem to me in that situation is not that Simon should have known about the mando, it's that even if everyone in the group were paying attention to the throw, no one standing at the tee (players, spectators, or tournament officials) was in a position to make a definitive call on whether it made or missed the mando.
What's even more frustrating is it's a super simple fix to. Get a long (50 - 60 feet at least) PVC pipe from some supply store, pour a skinny but longish (couple feet probably) concrete base that you stick the pipe in, and dig a post hole and plant it as your tournament mando. Or even just strap it to the tree with a few truck bed tie down straps. That way it's pretty damn obvious that it's a mando and it's easier to see if a hyzer misses it. Paint the pole yellow and wrap it in orange or red tape and bam, pretty easy to see off the tee too.
Should Simon have done everything that's been suggested? Yes. Does that absolve the TD and staff from creating a new feature that was poorly executed and not clearly defined? No. We can (rightly) be puzzled about how Simon couldn't have known about the mando, but we also should question why an experienced TD and staff with plenty of years of NT experience didn't do a better job implementing a change in the first place.
