THE BASKETS ARE IN!!!

[BuzzSharpe]

You Have Nothing For Which To Apologize, Mike

I've always appreciated your insight and outlook. I like your hole by hole analysis. You're spot on, with these addenda
#1 The day we planted that basket, the guys had me throw at it, from the Blue, of course...I damned near aced it.
#2 It is deuceable. I've done it...once...from the blue, of course.
#3 EXACTLY!
#4 I pruned some branches today, that hopefully will lessen the hate. This hole, like many, maybe even most, because of the lay of the land and the flow of the park does favor RHBH. Sorry. At least the mow line isn't OB.
#5 It's a 2. Sorry. Am thinking that there's a few branches that should be taken out for Gold.
6 & 7 I love those holes, too. God created those.
#8 The hole everybody loves to hate. It really is a nice, pretty, adequate fairway when the hillside is covered only with those tufts/clumps/ blooms of ankle high wild grass. As for getting some guys with some proper tools out there to clear it in a morning's time...how about a birthday present in two weeks, on Sat the 26th or Sun the 27th?
9 & 10 Great holes, especially as back to back, side ending and side beginning. Gotta give Grasse credit for those two.
#11 I've seen some go into that quagmire, but they've always been found...had to come back the next day with the missus to find one of mine. It does play tough as a three, which is better than easy as a four.
#12 I like it, too, as it gave me one of the very few dog leg opportunities. You know, of course, that that light pole just inside the corner of the fence is Mando to the right?
#13 The one hole I now wish we had done a little differently. Should've pruned pine branches like we did on 2, moved the Gold back 50 or 60 feet, so that it would play through a 50 or 60 foot tunnel, which could be enough to reduce the rhetoric of redundancy. Some say that its length and straight line path is boring. I say that it is the epitomic example of the most rudimentary fundamental of golf, ball or disc: How far and straight can you drive it? And I've had similar encounters with soccer folks...except, of course, they don't go "ooo" and "ahhh" with me. But I did finally manage to par it last weekend.
#14 I'm glad it was somebody cool, like Zack, who got the course's first Ace.
#15 I still maintain that there are like three fairways from the Gold. Have thought about some lower branch trimming of the trees out in the grass. Probably won't, unless there's one or some that REALLY hang down in the way. It is the course's only remaining par 4, after all.
#16 Yep.
#17 Yep, if you Ace it.
And #18 Right again, Mike! See my reply to bcbrown.
Thanks for the overall overview, Mike. Maybe you can right it up in a review for the course...but wait til we get the signs attached to the posts in the next week or so and the hillside cleared, hopefully in a couple of weeks.

 

[BuzzSharpe]

I appreciate your open mind, Pat.

I'm interested in playing the course. I will say I have played many courses with New and I know that he has an eye for what is good in a course and what isn't. I will say that pretty much everyone I know who has talked to me about this course has echoed New's concerns. These are not just some hack going out there and shooting poorly these are 960+ players.

I will likely make it up there in November to play and make my own decisions.

And I appreciate what you say about nameless New. I have to admire someone who has played that many courses and written that many reviews in such a short amount of time. But in fairness, The SPC is at a predetermined disadvantage relative to his view and review of it, as he clearly prefers wooded, wilderness type courses. In reviewing The SPC, he did have some positive things to say about it and many of his cons were contradictory, qualified and/or conditional. And of course, his most pronounced negatives were perceptual that this hole is too close to this other activity and that hole is too dangerous to be played. Continuing play on the course has shown, as we thought from the beginning that that is not the case. I hope that he'll come back, maybe after the signs are up, #8's hillside is cleared to its condition when I first surveyed it, and the bushes and brambles are more stomped down on #11 and reconsider his dismal 1-1/2 disc rating.

 

[bcbrown]

Thanks for taking the time to explain you thoughts on #18. I'd be interested to see what some of the higher-end players have to say about the first shot... it's just... so short. It feels non-disc-golfy to shoot a fairly simple 150' upshot from the tee just to take a HUGE RIP from a slanted hill. that said, I've really enjoyed (not sarcasm) when I've had 250-300ft upshots at that basket. The raised basket makes it a great round sealer.
I don't think the solution is trimming back trees, but I could be wrong.

Oh, and a note amongst the previous hate... my buddy and I have played this course over all other area courses since I found out about it on here... I am not masochistic enough to play it without a spotter on hole 8 though!

If you see a fat guy with no sleeves playing doubles with a skinnier guy out there today, give me a shout. I might be out later as well with a machete/scythe.

 

[BuzzSharpe]

Thanks for the feedback, BC

Oh, I'm thinking that most of the higher end players think that it's probably dumb design to limit what can be done off the tee, making it secondary, or even tertiary to following shots, but it's what I saw that the land was giving me with which to work. I wanted to avoid two tees just going straight up the hill, giving others another opportunity to rail about redundancy.
I'm not sure if I'm going to make it out there today. I'm hoping to, depending on the missus' wishes. Here in a bit, I'm going to be assembling a 'box' to be filled with dirt and rocks to sit around the base of 18's basket. I'd like to install it today and see how much play we're getting on Sneeky Pete weekend and see how much, if any, interference the big soccer tourney is creating. If I do get out there, I'll definitely look for you, BC. And any scything that you can do will be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[Tenacious EJ]

I'm out at the soccer tourney now. Honestly it's the smallest tournament I've attended as a soccer dad. Right now the soccer field lots are full, but nobody is parked on the course and the traffic isn't bad either. The baseball fields are completely empty. There is some wind though.

 

[BuzzSharpe]

Wish I could get out there today

I'm out at the soccer tourney now. Honestly it's the smallest tournament I've attended as a soccer dad. Right now the soccer field lots are full, but nobody is parked on the course and the traffic isn't bad either. The baseball fields are completely empty. There is some wind though.

But I guess I'll save gas and wear and tear on the Chevy and just stay on the farm and build most of my 'box' for 18's basket.

 

[New013]

And I appreciate what you say about nameless New. I have to admire someone who has played that many courses and written that many reviews in such a short amount of time. But in fairness, The SPC is at a predetermined disadvantage relative to his view and review of it, as he clearly prefers wooded, wilderness type courses. In reviewing The SPC, he did have some positive things to say about it and many of his cons were contradictory, qualified and/or conditional. And of course, his most pronounced negatives were perceptual that this hole is too close to this other activity and that hole is too dangerous to be played. Continuing play on the course has shown, as we thought from the beginning that that is not the case. I hope that he'll come back, maybe after the signs are up, #8's hillside is cleared to its condition when I first surveyed it, and the bushes and brambles are more stomped down on #11 and reconsider his dismal 1-1/2 disc rating.

First of all the nameless New stuff is just petty. My name is Dave Jones I'm not hiding my identity. Secondly the idea that myself and others who I play with and have gone on many road trips and played a lot of top notch courses have just now decided to lose our mind and call out your course specifically just doesn't make sense. It's not like myself and a bunch of people I don't even know got together and all decided to bring up all of these issues just so we could bash your course. If it was truly a great championship course I would say so.

I don't prefer completely wooded courses, I love courses that I can actually use my drivers on and let them fly. I like balance and in my review all I said was that there isn't a balance to the course which is my preference.

My perceived safety issues, which I pointed out in the review that they were perceived, accounted for .5 from the course. The ability to play the course when those fields are in use was another reason I just don't think it works. Maybe some people can play when those fields are in use but if it were me I would skip those holes. When I was playing 13 the wind caught one and took it 50' left in to the soccer field. If there were kids on that field I wouldn't even attempt to play it because I always veer on the side of safety. A friend said he turned one over and landed in somebodies back yard next to a swingset.

You're assuming people who aren't absolute newbs aren't going to just hyzer one over on to a field or turn one over on to the road while they're playing. You can't just assume that. Safety should be the #1 priority when installing a course like this that goes through a park where kids will be playing. People in this thread are admitting they are considering throwing out over a state road to execute the hole... just think about that statement.

Beyond all of that I just think there is not a lot of variety to the course and again for top players the difficulty just isn't really there. I think I was 4 under on the front 9 the first time I played it (excluding 8 which we didn't play). I also mentioned in my review that I wasn't counting against the course for the overgrowth and that I knew it would get taken care of eventually. As long as we're breaking down holes I might as well.

#1 - I like this hole.
#2 - Needed more trimming when I was there and it gives the course some balance but it's not a great hole by any means. Where the pad is located you really can throw a spike hyzer out over the road to the right and come back in and take all the bogey danger out of it.
#3 - Even if there isn't any safety issues which there are, it's not a good hole. It's boring, you throw a shot out in the open, then a hyzer out over the trees then a boring approach with no difficulty.
#4 - The short pad is a good hole, the long pad is just dangerous. I'll say it again you have to think about every possible flight path that a newb could throw and it's very possible somebody could nail and oncoming car or nail the scorebard go in to the field and hit a kid. Beyond that it's again another big hyzer with a short boring wide open upshot.
#5 - Par 2's shouldn't be a real thing. Again it's a simple spike hyzer over the trees. I took a 2 and to me that was a birdie.
#6 - The short pad is actually a tougher shot because from the long it's a relatively easy hyzer over the top.
#7 - Open not tough drive with a more than likely short and boring NAGS upshot for most people. For people with the arm it's still a boring mostly wide open shot with no challenge other than trying to get close at that distance.
#8 - I'll have to reevaluate this hole when you clear it
#9 #10 - I liked these holes the most, they're fun shots. Though again it's just a big anny or hyzer.
#11 - It'll be a pretty good hole once you clear all that crap around the basket out. I landed 30' right of the basket and was in the ****.
#12 - This hole just feels forced, you're playing down a fence on one side and jail on the other while your stuck on a side slope the entire way. It's not a fun hole and at this point the course really starts to take a turn for the worst atmosphere wise after it was just getting good.
#13 - You've even admitted this hole isnt all that. It's so forced and whether you'll admit it or not the safety issues are there. It's entirely possible someone will get hit while in their backyard over on the right. The only reason this and 12 are there are to get you to the other side.
#14 - Boring wide open hole, you could of stuck this basket in the trees a bit and had a much more interesting hole while still having a shot out the other side of the trees.
#15 - If you clear out the drive just a bit it'll be a much better hole.
#16 #17 - virtually the same kind of shot back to back with the park road directly to your left. it doesn't have any visual appeal and again there could be a safety issue.
#18 - I don't like where you put the pad but this is till one of the better holes on the course. I do think you should open up the drive a bit to make it more than just a layup off the tee. Other wise people may be trying a huge anny out over the road on the left.

So what do you have there. A lot of big hyzers and a lot of short boring wide open upshots unless you just happen to crush one perfectly or you screw up your drive. Plant some trees out there and actually give it some teeth, legit pros will tear this course a new one. I just don't even see the point of having holes 3, 4 long and 12-17; it's all forced in there. Seems like you could of played 1 up and then had 2 playing back down then maybe had a walk over to the area where 4 is and put a hole there maybe going the opposite way then skip over to 5.

Whether you take what I say in to consideration or not eventually other people on this site who play a lot of courses and review them will come and put up reviews. Perhaps they look at it more favorably than I did because the course will be more broken in but I find it hard to believe that many of them will consider this course a top notch championship calibur course. I've talked to other people who are highly respected in there work with courses and course design who have played it and see the same issues I do. It has 3 disc potential at most imo and hey that's not bad, it's just what the land there gives you.

This is the last thing I'll say on the matter and again I hope I'm not offending anyone with my opinion. These are not personal attacks against anybody and I have no grudge to bear against Buzz, the course or anyone else involved with it.

 

[sloppydisc]

This thread delivers!! I really don't want to drive 45 minutes to play a really bad course, but I'm going to have to head out there when i get some time. This is a lot of controversy and discussion for either a 2.5 disc course or a 4 disc 'Championship' level course. It could lead one to believe that someone has been smoking crack.

 

[BraveThrower43]

This thread delivers!! I really don't want to drive 45 minutes to play a really bad course, but I'm going to have to head out there when i get some time. This is a lot of controversy and discussion for either a 2.5 disc course or a 4 disc 'Championship' level course. It could lead one to believe that someone has been smoking crack.

Pretty much how I feel at this point

 

[DSmith]

Suck it up, come out and play the course, then post up your opinions, please.


It's not a bad course, its just misunderstood.

:|

 

[sloppydisc]

^^^

Sounds like one of Jeffrey Dahmer's excuses. It certainly does not build confidence. I'm screwed for a few weeks, but will attempt to get my very rusty arm put there ASAP. I have to play this course.

 

[BuzzSharpe]

I Didn't Mean To Be Petty

But I probably was and I apologize, Dave. I'm just an old man who has learned to be wary of probably too much. But it is a pleasure and a privilege to know you a little more. Jones is a good and proud family name. My best friend growing up was a Jones. And you are obviously a good and dedicated disc golfer; the type I had in mind in laying out The SPC.
I've never thought that you were purposely putting out a personal attack, as I'm not sure that we've ever met. And you like Johnson Street, which is, at least, partially my work. I just thought that the course deserves better than a 1.5 passable rating. But in fairness, Dave, from your other reviews and your opening line in reviewing The SPC, it is, I thought and think, a safe assumption to think that you do prefer isolated courses, like Black Jack, Harmon Hills, Cedarock and Wellspring.
Much of that comes from a safety point of view, no doubt and I do appreciate and admire that. Believe it or not, non-interference was a prime consideration in laying out the course. Maybe we did assume too much with Hole 13. But with a fairway width of 70' at the tees and 55' at the green, we surmised that the two activities could and would peaceably coexist, which they seem to be doing so far. #4 has always been a concern. That is why it is 200' shorter than originally designed. Maybe it should have been made even shorter, so that the current Blue tee would be Gold and Blue would be moved up a bit more. But that would really make that definitely another really short, boring flat hole. Do you think it would help to make that tree at the Blue tee a Mando left, so that you'd have to hit that gap between tree and light pole, so that you couldn't hyzer out over the road? I did recently trim back some of its branches to open up that alley a bit, as I did with the Pines on #3.
I found as much variety as I could in an open city park, utilizing what elevation there is, what trees there are and making holes of varying lengths from accepted minimum (150') to general maximum (1200') and by using installed features and specific trees as Mando's, to create have to hit gaps, of which I think that you're a fan.
As for your hole by hole, I agree with much of it.
#1 I like it, too, especially as a beginning hole, right at an entrance with close parking. The day we planted the basket, the guys had me throw at it (from the Blue, of course), and I damned near aced it.
#2 It has been trimmed a bit more. Originally, it was designed in the opposite direction, but changed for safety concerns. I never thought about anyone trying to throw it out over the road to come in through the canopy. Should the trees at the beginning of the woods be made Mando?
#3 I guess that from the viewpoint of a really good player, like yourself, it could be boring, but with the light pole Mando's, mow line and sidewalk OB's, I thought that it is a good, long, challenging hole. Safety of ball players practicing beyond the outfield fences has always been a concern. But by simply calling out "Heads Up!" if and when they're there, should eliminate most, if not all of it. And we always said that discers were in as much danger of getting hit by a ball, as we have found a couple of softballs right at the Blue tee.
#4 We've already addressed above.
#5 Though not recommended, PDGA guidelines say that Par 2's are a real thing, and #5 does fall within the prescribed parameters. Some have said that it is a forced filler hole. But with its length and location, it is a great beginning hole for The Rookie Run, and as a designated Blue/Gold Par 2, it is a place and putt challenge for those players.
#6 Yeah, but it is a pretty hole, don't you think. I used the few trees as best I could.
#7 I thought that the up elevation would make it more of a challenge. It is definitely a 3, rather than a 4, as originally designated.
#8 I'm hoping for a birthday present in a couple of weeks of a work party clearing the hillside. The right side will have to be cleared by natural use, as UN ICLEI rules and regs prohibit purposeful, planned clearing, as also on #11.
#9&10 It figures that maybe your two fave holes were conceived by someone other than myself. But they are good back to back, side ending and beginning ace run holes, as has been proven with an ace already achieved on #9.
#11 I totally agree.
#12 I have to totally disagree.
#13 Already addressed above. I've recently thought that the Gold tee should be 50'/60' back, which would reduce the redundancy factor and be another hole with some trees in play.
#14 Maybe it is too easy, since it was the first hole to be aced. It will be supposedly better in the future, as the park plans to extend that run of pines.
#15 I still maintain that there are like three discernible fairways through the trees. Some have suggested the felling of the little skinny tree in the middle, but it is the course's only remaining Par 4, and should be hard to hit.
#16 & 17 Better than the thought of that parcel of land being one long hole. There's really little safety issues on 16, as very little traffic actually uses the top part of the street. And with its shortness, 17 doesn't present much either, really. And being a designated Par 2, it does present that deuce or die challenge.
#18 There has been some additional branch trimming, I think since you played it. There may need to be more. And the second or third tree up on the left will be signed as a Mando to prevent playing out over the street.
You do make some good, even great points, Dave. But I do have to respectfully disagree with you on points like walking from #2 to #4 and what you see as too much danger. Even with the close proximity to other activity areas of holes like 3, 4, 13, 16 and 17, risk of injury to park patrons is remote, as there are veeeery few such instances in the history of the sport, with lots of courses with closer proximities than The SPC has. And thankfully, there are already some players who have reviewed it more favorably. As for legit pros tearing it up...I want to see that. I haven't placed a serious bet since Super Bowl III, but I'd be willing to wager that in a round observing OB's Mando's and designated pars, no one is going to average 14/15 under par, like Barry did at Sneeky Pete this past weekend.
I hope that you don't dislike the course so much that you'll never come back, Dave. I'd love to play a round with you and take some lessons. Of course, you'll have to play the Golds and let me play the Blues.

 

[Tenacious EJ]

Did some grooming on hole 8's hillside today- got about 75ft or so done beginning from the tees side of the hole. I plan on doing more starting on Monday. Here's the problem: there are a few saplings right straight ahead of the blue tee. As the beginning of the hole is extremely narrow as it is, I suggest removing the saplings. I haven't yet. I can see how some would argue to keep them, but they will double in size and width by next year, and there will be realistically no fairway. The only option will be to throw over the road, and quite frankly, that seems like a terrible choice. I imagine most of you know what trees I'm talking about, but if not I can post a pic. Anyways, for now they remain. Discuss...

 

[Tenacious EJ]

These are the 3 trees in question.

 

[New013]

I'd throw out over the road from that pad anyway whether or not you took those trees out or left them. Though if left there I'd definitely throw out over the road.

 

[Stardoggy]

Let em grow and make em a mando. Hello RHFH s-curve.

 

[bcbrown]

Last weekend there was a soccer tournament, so it was my first chance (in 7 rounds of playing) to play with people occupying the top fields...
To give a gauge of my distance/skill level (if this sounds like bragging or self-bashing, it is neither, just providing some context of WHO is doing the commenting): I throw about 415 on flat land. For context with another course, if I crush a drive from the whites or blues at Johnson, I am JUST outside the putting circle. I have been playing Springwood with a buddy (Captains choice) we tend to throw around 60 from the golds.

My safety takeaways:
I sacrifice my score for the future of disc golf in the park, but it's frustrating to have to chance your shot selection because of the presence of people. It happens, without a doubt. Whether it's significant enough to redesign holes is the REAL question.

Hole 12: I don't feel safe throwing for the hole if there are kids playing on that field. If a pro is playing the hole, (s)he will be trying to throw an OS RHBH that will flatten until getting to the mando and die left. If you're going for the 2, there's a chance it'll get left into the fields... too great of one for me to go for if there are kids there. In short: I throw for a 3 when there are kids playing on the corner field (when there are kids on the first field, I can still throw for 2)

Hole 13: Completely unplayable if you have any regard for human life. There is too much of a chance of hitting a soccer mom. Keep in mind, the hole challenges you to push your distance max. With a push for distance max, you introduce left-right variability.
The solution is NOT to move the teepad back, unless you apply a second solution (cutting the hole into two). If there are any clever positions for baskets, I think splitting the hole into two holes would be a better solution... it will reduce the need to BOMB to the max in an area where you want people being precise. It's not an "oooh, aahhh" hole as-is, so I don't think chopping it into two would degrade the situation too much. Maybe it would enable you to combine 16 + 17? We skipped the hole because of a concern for hitting people. If we had played, we would've taken a 6+ out of safety of spectators on a hole we typically 4.
Hole 14: I usually throw a slightly understable disc with a planned anhyzer RHBH... every now and then I don't snap it enough and it goes LEFT, as in left and short of the building. (2 of my 7 rounds). As a result, when I stepped up to the gold pad with a 6 year old girl to the short left and 50 people watching me tee off... I intentionally threw a ridiculously understable disc DIVING hard right... and took a ~150' putt at 3 from the fence instead of my usual 25ish footer for 2.

Again, I love playing the course, but when playing, I MUST change my throw selection based on people's presence. People ARE an issue. Safety IS an issue.

Also, on the note of wanting a par 4... if you want another par 4, you could get one out of hole 18.

 

[bcbrown]

Oh, and regarding hole 2... the hyzerbomb is harder to hit than it would seem. And now that the fairway has been cleared out a bit, anyone with a big enough arm to hit the hyzer bomb will just be going up the intended fairway.
2 is in great shape.

 

[Tenacious EJ]

Speaking as someone who averages about 100 ft less D per bomb drive, I have to say a 4 from 18 just isn't in the cards. 742 ft from the blues, uphill, with a tee shot that usually doesn't go more than 150 ft due to the lay of the land, leaves just under 3 shots at the basket to go ~ 500 ft. I'd say that's pushing it a bit. Just my opinion. I haven't been seeing any birdies anyways.

 

[BrotherDave]

It would probably be good to leave a tree in the bank here and there to help ward off future erosion.