The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[JR]

Grats! But i may perhaps rain a little on your parade but don't be encouraged because you might hae already passed one hurdle. Speed 13 discs behave differently in headwinds to anything slower. The Nuke fades too early with your power for ultimate D but maintains speed well in a headwind. That means that the headwind will delay the onset of fade while increasing glide thus giving you a lot of D. The real test is if you can have great results in rear and no wind conditions both with speed 13 and slower discs. And i think you should be able to do that with slowed down throws at least with low fade slower drivers. Which is just what tunnel shots require so i think you should have great strides soon or already now in playing some tighter holes.

 

[MustyDills]

Long time listener and first time caller here. I've been playing for a little under two years and had maxed out at the very familiar 350-370 range. In the last month I really started to take the drills and advice that I've found on this site to the practice field. As Blake has pointed out more than once, it has really taken time and persistence to even begin to feel the nuances of a throw that is performed with good technique. The reason I'm finally posting is to say thanks to all of those that contribute, let you know that you have helped my game to new heights, and that I inevitably have a few questions.

I had a big hurdle today after reading one of Blake's comments about how your arm being loose leading up to the launch (last few inches before the disc snaps out) will effectively put all of the timing components together if done correctly. I went out today and started doing the right pec drill as loose and smooth as I could a few dozen times all the way through the hit, until it felt good. While I know that I am not getting a "great" hit or wrist extension at the end, I am getting decent snap and a good straight flight out of my fairway drivers. So I stayed loosey goosey and added my steps and reach back over the next 30 minutes but totally concentrated on a loose arm with the exception of a tight pinch and nose down on my grip throughout. Big thanks to Bradley for suggesting the tight pinch between the thumb and index finger. I also get an audible snap which I think is mostly due to a more natural tightening of the grip at the finish. While I'm not plowing through any huge distance leaps yet, I am throwing 5-10% farther than I was before with less effort. I also find the ability to shape lines with my shoulders (allowing the arm to follow) to be much simpler than when I was trying to force my shoulders, elbow, and hand into an OAT free and synchronized plane. I will continue to build up from what I feel is a solid base in small increments. I know I could get more weight shift and wrist extension involved. The best part was playing with a couple local pro's after warming up and the compliments on the drives that I was ripping out. I even managed to blow a few past them on the longer holes because I hit the line spot on.

So I'll leave you guys with a few questions that are lingering after all of this.

1) I feel like when the disc is coming in towards my chest it's getting to my left pec and then my natural rhythm is causing the elbow chop to start. I know a lot of mechanics are different strokes for different folks but how important is it to get all the way to the right pec or middle of chest with the disc before entering the power zone? I see a lot of videos of pros and on here alike, where during a drive the disc makes it to about the armpit or left pec and then they start the arm chop and opening the body. The disc and arm don't seem to be able to get any deeper into the chest before the forearm starts its journey forward via natural timing cues. What are your thoughts on position of the disc before the pull when going at full speed.

2) Some guys on here say to actively start using arm muscles to create acceleration in the last stage but at the moment that feels like that would jam me up. I'll experiment with this but is it more important to hone my current feel of staying relaxed while trying to concentrate on wrist extension or should I try both at the same time? Will the tension that is created by using my forearm muscles assist in the extension and/or ripping of the disc? I'm getting a really nice whip motion and don't want to be counter productive by slowing it down.

3) Lately when I'm throwing hard anhyzers, I tend to not keep my pivot foot down for very long at all and do a little hop when I should be pivoting. Has anyone ever heard of or ran into this before? I'd love to get it on video as it probably looks as funny as it feels but that would probably earn me a new nickname if it ever made it onto here.

Thanks again,

 

[JR]

Welcome and congratulations on your distance gains and control increases and form advancements. It sounds you're well on your way.

I would think that the anny hopping comes from having too much sole to ground contact even though i've never seen this happen. Another possibility could be that for a right hand back hand throw your plant step landing position is too far to the right. You should run a little toward the left and plant even farther to the left. Hopping sounds very dangerous and more so if you have great traction in the shoes and a grippy tee.

When muscles work they get tighter. Chopping the elbow forward will tense up the muscles. It is a very different thing to actively tension the muscles for example in pushing down the wrist from reach back. For me it slows down the arm pull. Compared against thinking of moving the arm fast right as if you're trying to swat a fly. In the latter case the muscles feel half as tight as with the first version from the elbow chop forward. And i throw farther that way so i imagine the arm moves faster this way. Of course you want to push down with the wrist in the end of the throw.

People throw 500'+ with very different arm pull to body positions and timing. I would suggest to pull close to the both pecs for control shots. For distance shots i'd try everything to see what gives you the best results now. Close to left far from the right. Far from the left pec close to the right pec. Close to both pecs. The body turning timing varies between those. To gain real insight you should become proficient with each of these to see what's what. You might sell yourself short if you dismiss one version just because you perform worse in it than the others.

 

[clard]

So I've read through most of this thread and I'm starting to get some understanding of the weight shift and hammer pounding from the little bit of experimentation that I've done. Here is where I am stuck: I can throw my putters (KC aviars) around 260-290 feet, with the occasional disc flying into the end zone, but I can only throw my drivers about 30 or 40 feet further. I can't tell if my form is bad or what, but if I can throw putters that far should't I be able to throw a driver considerably further? Any thoughts are appreciated.

On a side note, I obviously just joined this board but I have been lurking for a week or two, and it looks like you guys have a great community. I'm really glad I found it.

One thing I know FOR SURE is that I am just releasing the disc rather than letting it pop out. I really have no idea how the disc should be forcing its way out of my hand. That's what it should be doing, right?

 

[JR]

Welcome. 290' with a KC should mean 400' power for fast drivers once the form is sorted. Which grip do you use? Have you tried initially squeezing the disc mildly at first, adjusting for not slipping if necessary, in the bottom of the palm of the hand base of the thumb on one side of the disc and the part next to the pinky squeezing from the other side? And pinching the thumb and the index finger only at the last few inches of the throw like mad?

The usual suspect for people with so much power to get putters that far and drivers not that much farther is nose up throw. A lot has been written about that lately. Please check out the top of the threads on the video critique section for detailed instructions on avoiding this. And in this sub forum Nose up with slower drivers? thread.

You absolutely must not release the disc on drives. It is the other way around it is difficult to hold on to the disc long enough to make it pivot around the index finger and the thumb for lots added speed and spin.

 

[clard]

Thanks for the reply! I use a four finger power grip where my pinky middle and ring fingers are on the inside of the rim and the backs of those finger nails are against the top of the disc. My pointer and pinky tend to dig their nails into the top of the disc. I am probably throwing a bit nose up as well; I have been seeing signs of that.

I have not tried the loose hold and then squeezing like crazy at the end. I'll do that when I leave work in 30 minutes

I don't completely understand what people are talking about when they say pivot around the index finger and thumb: do you actually mean that the disc no longer rests in the palm of your hand but swings out with that point that you are pinching as the pivot? Like a hoolahoop does around your body, sort of?

 

[Blake_T1]

in this case it's probably also heavily linked to grip leverage that you can get on putters vs. drivers.

narrow and deep rims allow for significantly better leverage than drivers, especially wide-rimmed drivers.

 

[JR]

do you actually mean that the disc no longer rests in the palm of your hand but swings out with that point that you are pinching as the pivot? Like a hoolahoop does around your body, sort of?

Yes you got it. Physics suggest that once something has momentum it ain't gonna stop until something drags it down. The path of least resistance combined with that means that if you retard the opening of the wrist to a steely stop the disc has such a momentum that if you time and power the index finger/thumb (some add middle finger to this too) pinch right the disc will leave the palm and swing around the pinch point. IIRC it has been measured that of the exit speed of the disc 10 % is created during the disc pivot. And 40 % during the wrist extension. Which means in a space of just a few inches. That is why Innova disc designer, former world champion and distance record holder Dave Dunipace says that the throw happens in the final inches although in different words. I don't recall the exact words.

Tall discs also stick better for unclean releases. Do you get grip locks where the KC Aviar leaves visibly faster but flies 20 or so degrees right?

 

[luke.baker]

I'm still working through my own issues with throwing drivers, but I also felt like I was in a similar situation (putters going fairly far and drivers not much farther). For me, I think part of the disparity between putters and drivers was due to the fact I was throwing them with different forms. For drivers I was doing a much farther reach back which I suspect caused some timing issues that prevented the same kind of weight shift that I was getting with putters. All that to say, it might be worth verifying that your form is not significantly different when using different discs.

 

[jubuttib]

I don't recall the exact words.

"By far, the most important part of any shot is what is happening in the last split second as the disc is pulling itself from your grip. Focus there. It's the key."

 

[clard]

I think that my putters usually leave my hand right of where my other discs do (RHBH). I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean by wrist extension though...Are you actually supposed to actively lock your wrist at some point or should your wrist extend fully. I feel like i'm seeing both.

 

[JR]

Luke it is quite normal to not be able to focus mentally on commanding the muscles to fire as well or in the correct time or at all when you reach back farther. It is a natural process that all the brain procesing goes to trying to stay upright. A backhand x step throw ain't a normally used motion and it needs to be practiced.

clard search function advanced options author blake_t search for his recent posts somewhere there is a picture about the wrist extension. And for hyper spin technique the wrist should be some degrees to the right of neutral RHBH. Also check out the Discraft video More distance now om Youtube for a visual explanation. In order to limit the mass of moving parts while simultaneously transferring all the created momentum to the disc. That means you must retard the wrist. It ain't gonna be full stop but the act of trying to is enough.

 

[emiller3]

I think Blake advocates leaving your wrist loose when you are learning snap so that you can get the feel of the wrist bouncing (coiling inward and extending out.) This tells you that you are getting your pull close enough and your elbow forward enough. I think it's the best way to promote body positioning that will aid snap, and I think the towel drill provides the best instant feedback as to whether or not things clicked. It was very difficult to snap a towel with a stiff wrist, I pretty much had to leave my wrist loose.

Disclaimer: I'm gonna pull a JR-sized post here as a kind of summary of where this thread and the Snap 2009 thread have taken me.

Once I started snapping the towel consistently, I was disappointed when I went out to the field and threw. I got no increase in distance, and in fact, I lost some D because I had inadvertently eliminated my reach back. So I stiffened up my wrist after seeing JR's reminder about Bradley's "resist the inward coil of the wrist" mantra and voila, my D came back. I hit 420' with a Valk a couple times, even further in a tailwind, and was able to consistently hit around there with a Destroyer, but I could still tell that I wasn't snapping it well. My throws still looked velocity dominant, and I had already hit those distances without snapping a towel.

And a stiff wrist didn't get me much aiming ability, which is what I was really after. I went and rewatched Bradley's Snap 2009 video and realized that I wasn't flinging the outside edge of the disc at all. I was relying on good body positions and good velocity to get a little snap on the disc, but I was mostly just kind of throwing through the release of the disc instead of leveraging the disc out. It's kind of hard to explain. But I gave it a try and I got that great feeling of effortless aiming that was always fleeting, where the fairway looks like it opens up a mile wide and you can aim it wherever you want (and I play on some very tight fairways.) I went back to my towel snapping and tried to integrate the same thing...tried to imagine having a disc or a hammer in my hand instead of the towel. At first I lost all of my towel snap, and I was convinced it wouldn't work. But I loosened my arm during the pull, guided the towel in nice and close to my chest, then extended my wrist through the hit like I was flinging the conceptual hammer, and I magically got the snap back. It's a different snap...I have more control over it, and I think it's more "correct"...I'm not sure how to explain the difference there. I integrated it into my low power throws and was getting the effortless aim I was looking for, and had a snap dominant flight at 350' with my Eagles without hardly trying to throw. It's basically like throwing an easy upshot but being able to do it off the tee and at greater distances. I can tell that I'll be able to push the Eagles further out with a little fine-tuning, but I'm extremely happy to be where I'm at. My first time out using this method I had 4 early releases but 12 successful point and shoot drives and set a new personal birdie record at my home course.

It wasn't until after that that I decided to try adding a lot of reach back for a 100% drive. Once I did, I starting smashing it. I didn't try and change anything or focus on anything except reach back--a lot of reachback. There's probably more to it than that but I haven't analyzed it yet. Hit a tree 440' down the fairway this morning with my Valk and it was still penetrating forward, don't know how far it would have gone if I hadn't hit it. It's hard to describe how my distance drivers are flying, but they just seem to be hitting a second gear at some point down the fairway. Tighter s-curves than I would have expected, very late and smooth turn at times, holding their height through a turn, and just always moving forward.

Much thanks to Blake and Bradley for taking the time to emphasize wrist drills over body positioning drills, it has helped me a lot over the last few months.

 

[clard]

Still practicing and I'm making some progress. I just read some of the articles about snap and they are helping me get a better idea or what I need to trying to do. I really appreciate everything you guys have published on here!

Quick question: If you had to recommend a disc to buy a stack of and practice driving with what would it be? "If you can throw a ______, you can throw anything!" is what I'm looking for, haha.

 

[whiz]

I would recommend something will very neutral stability or even slightly understable. A more stable mold will give you a lot less feedback. With that said, something in base plastic will also give you great results in terms of improving your ability to throw different lines. Probably the most common responses (aside from putters) would be x-comets, dx rocs, dx gazelles, D cyclones (I personally don't like discraft's current D-line plastic), pro leopards, dx teebirds or P-line PDs. Personally, I have been working a lot lately with my C-line and S-line Discmania TDs (Rush). While these are obviously not in base plastic it is a disc with very neutral stability. With the distances you are currently throwing I would personally recommend X-comets (one of the best discs I have ever bought...taught me much about the (my) game) and dx teebirds/P-line PDs. If you do get PDs make sure they are domey and stiff. The flat and gummy ones are not nearly as nice.

 

[clard]

Those sound like good recommendations. I already have a couple teebirds and that was one of my initial thoughts as well so I will probably go with them.

Also, I really need to stop reading this site while at work because I end up standing up in my cube and swinging my arm around and my co workers start looking at me like I'm an idiot. My productivity has gone down a bit too...

 

[jenb1]

There was a post at DGCR recently that has gotten some attention, and I would like a second opinion.

The main thing that was said that was surprising was, "you will find that old throw that used to come out really good and go really far, you used to call a 'grip lock' was actually you throwing correct, but out of alignment."

Below is the entire post.

THE HIT ...or THE SNAP or whatever else you wanna call it


for me its the same, i feel it is just as easy to throw a stand still putter 300' or 200' and have that late acceleration and feel the disc hit out my hand, just like throwing a mid or driver. anhyzer or hyzer doesnt make a difference either.

for people who struggle with getting that hit on the disc is , they just cant make themselves hold on to the disc long enough to get it, most people force them selves to early release because of their approach to the tee, or because they are trying to "aim" the disc, and release it at that perfect spot.... for the disc to get great snap, it has to come out of your hand without you wanting it to.

here is a simple way to know weather or not your "releasing" at the right time.

stand straight up

hold your throwing arm straight out to your side.

face the palm of your hand towards the way your facing.

keeping your whole body still, keeping your arm straight, start moving your arm backwards

ok when it gets to the point where you can not move it anymore

stop and look, your arm is about at the spot where you should be releasing...

you will actually release just before this spot, so that you are accelerating through the hit, but just before it, dont worry, you dont have to time this part, it will come out of your hand already!!

most people who try this...will start off throwing waayyyyyyyy right, but as you keep adjusting to this new release you will find that old throw that used to come out really good and go really far, you used to call a "grip lock" was actually you throwing correct, but out of alignment =D

hope that helps

yes or no?

 

[emiller3]

When I started getting better snap, it didn't feel anything like grip lock. And it actually became easier to aim...I didn't have to start aiming 20 degrees off from my target to snap it straight. It was pretty much point and shoot. I would hesitate to associate grip lock with snap, there are a lot of reasons someone could yank it right and most if not all of them have nothing to do with snap.

 

[JR]

I'm not sure if i understood the description right. If i did i don't find it useful. If you go look at the main page technique repair section there are clear reasons given for grip locks. Dave McCormack of Gateway has said something like that the correct grip strength is grip lock minus just a little. Contrasting that with the reason and corrections for grip lock stated in the technique repair section i'd say it is half right at least. As long as you do the technique repair stuff first for from correction. For rectifying the rest. To me a grip lock ain't an indication of a good throw. A pinched disc pivoted throw is.

Jen earlier i read between the lines that you'd want to challenge the few 400' driving ladies there are. If so you don't need immense finger strength. For a man anyway. I can barely make RB 160 gripper move and am an inch short on closing the RB 100. The numbers mean pounds of pressure in the squeeze needed to close the gripper. Powerballs are good exercise and warm up tools as well.

I have a definite weakness in the most important finger for grip the thumb. I've had surgery to the tendons that are strained by clamping down on the disc with the thumb. It hurts at a lot of power even without throwing. My mileage varies from healthy people so we can't read much at all from my results. I got to 400' with less hand and finger power than this. And whatever the reason, timing, lack of power, subconscious loosening of the fingers for protection of the damaged tissues or whatever i can't make a disc pivot with x steps that are fast. I also have a weak wrist BH and my FH is definitely way better so for me there are gains to be had from exercising the BH wrist motion. The surgery has made that much more difficult to execute from anatomic changes alone. Not to mention the damage. So anything i say comes from different background and may not be relevant as long as it's based on my experience.

 

[jenb1]

Thanks guys. I have to say I'm not really going for distance right now. I'm just trying to get a consistent drive out to 225-250 that goes in the right direction. I think I've finally developed the knack, and I have even started parking holes on first or second drive quite often, and even hitting the pin off the tee now and then.

But what I am doing is just a hyzer release of a fairway driver (leopard, teebird, banshee, etc.) that flips up flat and flies straight. The way I got control is that I'm actually trying to stop my arm swing at the snap, and transfer all of that momentum into the wrist/hand/disc. Of course, my arm keeps going, but the release point/disc direction is very predictable. The turn depends on whether or not I pick the right disc for the wind conditions.

The motion/feel that I am getting is as if I am snapping a towel towards the ground at my feet, or a little to the right and front thereof, with my right shoulder towards the target, and the disc pivots out at almost a right angle to the imaginary towel. So I am no longer trying to accelerate all the way through the snap, I'm not trying to snap the imaginary towel towards the target, and I'm not trying to achieve a flat release. Plus, I'm really taking a LOT of power off the throw.

The drives are still going almost as far with a lot less effort and a lot more accuracy, and I am starting to feel like that teenager who is learning to drive a car and finally starting to get it under control. Maybe I can get more distance later, but right now I want to focus on stuff that is going to lower my scores, and this driving technique seems to be doing the trick.