The "Incomplete" Secret Technique

[ManU]

like I said when I made my first post I should have taken a day to relax first before writing the post
as it stands I am by no means knocking the drills...just about any gains I have made over the last couple of years have been due to this site and I am thankful for that

my frustration comes from the fact that I do believe that I am athletic and coordinated and that I should have the ability to learn and improve and I don't want to be stuck at 300-330
I WANT to be able to throw 400 on a flat line
I should be able to achieve that

I realize that this does not happen over night
I also realize that it will take some work and I need to get into the field and practice more
I will endeavor to do that

I'll ask some questions to see if I can get myself on a better track

on this picture is the hammer pound in frame 3 or 4?
is frame 3 the "right pec drill" so to speak?

I think/feel like I am trying to do it somewhere between 2 and 3 and that does not feel like it has any power

also the "pull" or when I am to pull on the disc (which I assume should close my wrist on the BH) should the disc already be in front of me and my shoulders already opening

should my grip on the disc be very loose all the way through frames 1 through 3 and only bear down after my shoulders have opened towards the target?

I also need to clarify some things on upper body positioning
I mentioned that I had OAT
I am pretty sure of this on the basis that I think my upper body is in the wrong position such that when I follow through my right shoulder drops below my left resulting in a tug down
my follow through arm seems to carry a downward arc (my hand ends below shoulder height ...should it be above?)

is this weight forward issue something where I need to be bending my upper body "over" so that I am almost leaning forward?


when I do the drills I think I can feel the weight of the disc moving
I am pretty sure though that I can't feel any nudge

it might help to get some video up
I will see if I can convince my wife to take a few vids for me

 

[Dr. Burd]

I'll send a PM regarding a few of those things and help as best I can.

As for the other questions relating to the hammer pound - I'm pretty sure the hammer pound is happening at more like "Frame 3.5 or 3.75".

Frame 3 is basically the right pec drill and the position you will begin REALLY pulling from.
Frame 4 as drawn is a millisecond before the pivot completes and the disc rips out of your hand.

What happens immediately before Frame 4 is what the super sekret teqniks are all about. Your acceleration from the right pec will cause the wrist to coil and then at least hit neutral - then the pivot around your index/thumb.

 

[Blake_T1]

no worries manU. gotta remember that i get frustrated when i can't get someone to learn it makes me feel like the shiz i come up with isn't good enough. it's one thing when i know something is overly-complicated, it's another thing when i feel like people are just looking at things from the wrong point of view.

Dr Burd is pretty much right on. the hammer pound should start somewhere between frame 2.5 and frame 3 and the actual pound part of it happens at like 3.5-3.75 when the shoulders are still parallel to the target.

the "nudge" happens at 4. the nudge is a very subtle feel and probably not worth working on until you can get the other parts of it down.

you have to keep in mind that until recently, people didn't throw 400' on a flat line. the ones that did, were "big arms." "plateau distance" was like 360' w/ a valk or teebird, 380' with an SL, flash, or orc if you turned em over, and 400' with a wraith only if you turned it over.

 

[josser]

the questions that both of you are asking are making it clear to me that you are off the correct path in both body and mind. it's not just a failure of the body to execute the motion, if you don't notice the physical cues associated with a success or failure, it is also a problem in the mind. also, it's a problem in the mind if you can't shed preconceived notions of the motion to just rely on your senses to feel it.

^^^ This is very much the truth.

My point with needing a coach with trying to help work out the shades of gray was about trying to be more efficient in the trial and error process. But your points are all very well taken.

I am actually not frustrated at all, but I do really feel ManU's frustration. I was frustrated when I couldn't get past the 275' Barrier. Now I can throw 325' on demand with pretty much any driver that I can turn over a bit. That is enough distance to be competitive in local doubles and I am happy enough with that. Now I want to work on accuracy. And this really needs a consistent release point which I expect will be greatly improved if I can add any snap at all. Which is why I am excited about pounding the hammer. But like I said, I am pretty content (for now) with my current level of play and want to improve lots of small things: not grip locking on smaller rims, consistency, putting, getting out of trouble, etc. So I am happy to work slowly on these drills and learn from the questions of others.


I've been doing drill 6 a bunch in my home and haven't had the chance to try actually throwing for a few days, but I can tell you that I think I am feeling it with drill 6 and I get WAY more speed at the end of drill 6 (backhand downward) than drill 3 (OH downward).


I do have a quick question relating from going from drills 4 or 5 to an actual throw. When I do these drills, I can still hold on no matter how hard I pound the hammer. This may be a subconscious thing since I am often doing them inside and don't want to put a disc through my wall. But if I want to go from these drills to building up an actual throw in the field, shouldn't I be able to do them hard enough that the disc rips out of my hand. Do I need a bit of reach back to do this or should I just be using a looser grip?

 

[garublador1]

I understand this is a frustrating thing to hear for someone who's not getting it, but I think many people make these drills a lot more complicated than they need to be. Forget about throwing a disc. Forget about a reach back, forget about the x-step, forget about timing, forget about mechanics. Then do the drills. Don't try to apply them to anything, just do them so you get the feel of the weight of the disc pivoting about a point, aka the "hammer pound." Once you get that feel in one drill, move to the next. After the first time this will happen really quickly if your focus is right. The way the drills build one one another your throw will build itself, you won't need to apply the drills to anything. The only thing you should be worrying about or focusing on is the "hammer pound". Backhand you want the hammer pound to happen at 10:30-11 o'clock. All you should try to do is pound the hammer at that point. If you do that all of the other stuff will fall into place. Focusing on the other stuff will just make getting the hammer pound more difficult so don't do it.

 

[scoopa]

^ Agreed. Another way to think of it is pound the hammer on the line you want to hit then you don't have to think about the clock either. You accuracy will soar.

 

[racer93]

Focusing more on my technique, I shot a 1060-rated round last night at a local tough course. My putting was on, but my driving was impeccable. When your form is on, the disc goes exactly where you want it to. Plus, you can start throwing slower discs (read: mids) on holes you used to throw drivers. Amazing.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Focusing more on my technique, I shot a 1060-rated round last night at a local tough course. My putting was on, but my driving was impeccable. When your form is on, the disc goes exactly where you want it to. Plus, you can start throwing slower discs (read: mids) on holes you used to throw drivers. Amazing.

Im glad to see you getting it. Now, are you throwing mid ranges because you can, or because your overdriving the holes with your drivers :twisted:



Something i found that really brought it all together for someone this morning:

Slow it down. Even if you think your moving slow, slow it down. I guarentee you will feel the disc's weight at that point.

This does not require huge speed to do. Allow the speed to take care or itself. Slow, smooth movements.

DONT TRY TO FORCE IT. You wouldn't try to swing a hammer as fast as you can would you? No; you would be smooth.

So dont try to throw fast. Allow yourself to be fast by doing the following: Be loose; Be fluid; Be smooth. Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast.

This also works great for anyone having issues with their timing as now you are allowing your natural timing to take over versus trying to guess or force the timing yourself.

BTW, Pat is right; This stuff is the shiZnit.

 

[JHern]

Something i found that really brought it all together for someone this morning:

Slow it down. Even if you think your moving slow, slow it down....

This is exactly what I need to hear also. I am always going into the hammer strike with way too much speed, and the weight shift happens so suddenly and violently that the disc simply pops off my lock and rip fingers, no matter how hard I grip. After changing from straight arm reachback style throwing (I had plateau-ed at 370' with my Pro Destroyer), and re-applying myself to Blake's techniques, I dropped back to 330' for a little while, but now when I slow it down a focus on the hammer striker, things are beginning to click for me. I was throwing 400' slightly uphill yesterday on a very long hole, actually putting me in 50/50 birdie range for the first time.

Anyways, I'm excited. I should soon be able to throw up to 375' golf D consistently and accurately, so if I can only get my putting game sorted out, I'll be able to jump back into competition with some hopes of winning from time to time.

 

[yvescy]

This is great stuff! After a week and a half of trying this I am finally starting to see some noticable results. Lately, I've been able to throw further and more accurately on many holes in my local course than before. I have been joining my local club's weekly and monthly tournaments with an average rating of 850...but just this tuesday I got a 930 rated round! it felt great.

It definitely is about feeling the weight of the disc and "pounding the hammer" and then being able to build your form around that.

I have been playing this awesome sport for about 5 months now (bitten by the bug and addicted) and like many, want to improve fast. A couple of months ago I learned about getting the nose down, making the disc fly straight etc. And I have been able to get my putters 200+ range, rocs in the 240-275 range, drivers 280-340 feet max.

Now with this technique, I have been able to reproduce that on the field with seemingly less effort.
Sure, my form isn't what it used to be, but now I have something new to build around on.

I feel very fortunate to be able to learn these things early in my disc golf playing days. Just like with any thing else, it is harder to unlearn things and can get frustrating. So you just have to embrace that, stick with it and just realize that what you are trying to learn and put effort in is just around that corner.

And thanks again to Blake, masterBeato, Bradley, Timko, USAnarchy, and others who have contributed a lot to these forums.

 

[racer93]

Im glad to see you getting it. Now, are you throwing mid ranges because you can, or because your overdriving the holes with your drivers :twisted:

No, I do it because i'm overthrowing holes <275', even with KC Aviars. It sucks. Good thing I can putt well! However, I can't figure it out. I REALLY need to practice that range shot, badly.

Anything less than 360' or so, I'm considering a buzzz, a TB or a Z Predator, depending on all the factors (hole design, wind, trouble, etc.).

 

[x-out1]

the goal isn't to hang onto it through the pivot, it is to give it extra juice INTO the pivot.

i completely feel the pivot, but i'm not quite getting the hammer pound. the times i do feel a small portion of the hammer pound, i usually feel it too late into the pivot.

any words of advice? :fingers-crossed:

if not then i guess its just rinse wash and repeat.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Slow it down. It sounds like your going too fast and thus hitting it late due to timing being off.

 

[x-out1]

Slow it down. It sounds like your going too fast and thus hitting it late due to timing being off.

thanks for the reply.

i'm trying to rebuild my form after a good amount of time off. before i was maxing out at 450' on golf lines, so i guess i was only half hitting even at my peak.

at least i've found the pivot point again, just need to refine the timing a bit more. the pivot point today feels more exaggerated than i can recall, but that's a good thing i imagine. can't wait to find the timing and "true" feeling of a full hit. the thought of what the footage will be/can be is quite exciting.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Im glad to see you getting it. Now, are you throwing mid ranges because you can, or because your overdriving the holes with your drivers :twisted:

No, I do it because i'm overthrowing holes <275', even with KC Aviars. It sucks.

Here are my Putter/Midrange distances that I use.

From 0 - 75feet im putting/jump putting

From 76 - 125feet im doing a stand still throw

From 126 - 275feet im doing a one step throw

From 276feet + im throwing with an x-step

remember to also try varying the reachback distance. This way you can find the range of a limited reachback to a full reachback and how many steps you need to hit a certain distance.

Comes in handy when the hole distances are correct. Might cost you a few strokes if your playing based on an inaccurate distances.

After this weekend, I need to practice judging distances better as the listed distances were off by a good 25 feet on some holes. GPS Anyone? GPS?

 

[Hankman]

Blake talked in this topic about the forearm stopping moving forward due to directional change but do you actually stop the forearm (locking the upper arm-forearm angle) "actively" with your muscles (like you stop the elbow) or just let it swing open?

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Blake talked in this topic about the forearm stopping [from] moving forward due to directional change...

You answered your own question: "...the forearm stopping [from] moving forward due to directional change..."

You do nothing. Allow it to happen. The direction change takes care of it.

 

[masterbeato]

Blake knows far

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Blake knows far

If he's Yoda, you must be Luke Skywalker, because he said the "force" was strong with you....

You need to update us with some new footage.

 

[aDave]

I think that "hammering" has illuminated the Feldberg 70/30 grip strength split for me.
With a 4 finger grip (RHBH) I was feeling a lot of pressure on my ring finger relative to the other 3. Also the disc wobbles around a good bit on the rebound of the hammer.
Switching to the "fork" grip seems to focus the force naturally on just the pinky,(duh) and the rebound from the pound is quick, smooth and much more forceful.
Long story short. I'm getting much cleaner release with the fork grip.
I also am beginning to get a feel for how tendon bounce works due to this.
I can feel it much better with the force focused on one finger pad and am getting my late rip squeeze in better too. This has really been the eureka moment for me. Accuracy, distance and spin have all gone through the roof for me with less power spent off the tee since I started trying it out.
I'm a BIG fan.