This grip lock thing needs to stop

[Sheep]

People use grip lock intuitively because that's what they're feeling. It can be a great talking point if you're actually coaching someone.

There are so many creators giving tips and making content now that you can't argue away the bad stuff; no use getting angry about it. It's easy to call out what you think is wrong about other people's content, I used to (and still sometimes do) fall into that trap. It's better to find or create what you think is good content and share that. Critique throws not YouTube content.

It's one thing for small channels to do it, it's there, but not mainstream.
Such as our re-assurance of "squish the bug" and "double move" issues you get with coaching now because... ugh.

Big channels that people trust should be striving to not give bad information and set an example.

I mean whatever.
But as well.
I'm creating content in here, because its an issue. And everyone's more concerned with trying to make fun of it vs be serious about something that is wrong.

I feel like we argue so much over semantics. The same motions can feel like different things to different people. We need to stop critiquing people's use of language and try to understand what they're trying to say and relating it to how we feel. It's honestly frustrating and has led to a lot of unwarranted critique of certain YouTube videos at times. As far as I know, there is no right or wrong way to throw a disc. There are more efficient ways to throw a disc and maybe that's what most people are disagreeing about. Sometimes it feels like content creators make it sound like they're talking about two different things when really they're trying to say the same thing.

Language is how we define things.

This whole "well, I know I said this, but that's not what I mean at all" isn't how words work. Words have definitions and meaning. Just calling something whatever you feel like doesn't fix the situation or describe to someone what you mean.

Almost ALL terms in disc golf are really poor descriptors of what you're supposed to be doing. Were in here to talk about technique, coaching and strategy.
The better you explain what is going on to someone, the faster they will learn to do what you're telling them.

It's not "semantics." It's bad language.

If we look like a bunch of doughnuts when we talk about our sport and we coach our sport, were going to get treated and respected like a bunch of doughnuts by other sports.


I need you to take this seriously with me on this based on your reply.

If your teaching someone and they are releasing 30-45 degrees late every time and they keep saying "I grip locked it" which is incorrect.
You would be doing them a disservice by agreeing with them vs explaining to them what they are actually doing, that is causing them to aim their body in that direction and throw the disc late from their planned target line.

If you just kept agreeing with them "yeah, that's grip lock" .. you're cheating that person from learning and getting better.

Explaining to them what they are actually doing and letting them know that its a made up excuse will allow them to improve, and when they make that mistake again, they will understand how to fix it, vs think its some "fluke" issue that happens when playing.
Which is what most players think grip locking is, some fluke, and its an excuse "oh ooopsies, i grip locked it"
No, you lined up and threw the shot right down that line.

 

[foxdawg10]

We call it shank-a-potomus, have a laugh, and move on to next hole.

Inevitably, someone sings the song Baby Come Back.

I don't think anyone has ever cited Foundation as a legit source for anything. They are pure entertainment to get their name out there to sell discs.

 

[Sard0nyx]

It's one thing for small channels to do it, it's there, but not mainstream.
Such as our re-assurance of "squish the bug" and "double move" issues you get with coaching now because... ugh.

Big channels that people trust should be striving to not give bad information and set an example.

I mean whatever.
But as well.
I'm creating content in here, because its an issue. And everyone's more concerned with trying to make fun of it vs be serious about something that is wrong.



Language is how we define things.

This whole "well, I know I said this, but that's not what I mean at all" isn't how words work. Words have definitions and meaning. Just calling something whatever you feel like doesn't fix the situation or describe to someone what you mean.

Almost ALL terms in disc golf are really poor descriptors of what you're supposed to be doing. Were in here to talk about technique, coaching and strategy.
The better you explain what is going on to someone, the faster they will learn to do what you're telling them.

It's not "semantics." It's bad language.

If we look like a bunch of doughnuts when we talk about our sport and we coach our sport, were going to get treated and respected like a bunch of doughnuts by other sports.


I need you to take this seriously with me on this based on your reply.

If your teaching someone and they are releasing 30-45 degrees late every time and they keep saying "I grip locked it" which is incorrect.
You would be doing them a disservice by agreeing with them vs explaining to them what they are actually doing, that is causing them to aim their body in that direction and throw the disc late from their planned target line.

If you just kept agreeing with them "yeah, that's grip lock" .. you're cheating that person from learning and getting better.

Explaining to them what they are actually doing and letting them know that its a made up excuse will allow them to improve, and when they make that mistake again, they will understand how to fix it, vs think its some "fluke" issue that happens when playing.
Which is what most players think grip locking is, some fluke, and its an excuse "oh ooopsies, i grip locked it"
No, you lined up and threw the shot right down that line.

You clearly need to understand language better since your reply doesn't really engage with much that I said. You already paint a picture of what I am saying because you disagree with what I said, even if that's not what I'm advocating for. Words have more than one definition and meaning. The words or phrases we argue about are usually made up without any true dictionary definition. We can use griplock for example. Even though I wasn't reference this specific case but speaking more in a general sense. You can't look it up in a dictionary and get meaning for it. Nor can you look up in a dictionary a word for throwing it in the right direction with full power by setting your feet up correctly and holding on later.

I really think some of the things I'm reading here is starting to sound a lot like the things we accuse other content creators of doing. We should step back and stop missing the forest for the trees. And looking back at old posts from years ago on here, it seems that others have had that issue as well. We need to stop engraining ourselves with a right and wrong way of doing things in disc golf. Because when you start making things black and white, that truly aren't, you do a disservice to people who are trying to learn in their own way.

 

[Kennets]

Isn't the term just a "quick chat" for bad body alignment? Or does people actually believe that with a good form, they are able to "grip lock" on a regular basis?

More offtopic: i would LOVE if people did a form check on Robbie C. I'm by no means a form expert (at all), but i would love to see if you guys would attack his form journey,the same way we see it in his videos.

 

[txmxer]

We need to stop engraining ourselves with a right and wrong way of doing things in disc golf. Because when you start making things black and white, that truly aren't, you do a disservice to people who are trying to learn in their own way.

:clap::clap::clap:

 

[Brychanus]

Isn't the term just a "quick chat" for bad body alignment? Or does people actually believe that with a good form, they are able to "grip lock" on a regular basis?

More offtopic: i would LOVE if people did a form check on Robbie C. I'm by no means a form expert (at all), but i would love to see if you guys would attack his form journey,the same way we see it in his videos.

I'd imagine on the first point that it's a bit of both. Some of Sard0nyx's point about semantics is at work there, as well the relative knowledge base of the person talking.

At first glance Robbie has some nice things going on. If I were the critic, I'd say that it looks like he has a little more manipulation of the swing through his arms than most top throwers do, and the plane his arm takes into follow through seems related to that issue. Part of the problem is that he doesn't quite get everything braced into the plant swinging inside on quite as pristine a tilted axis. So he tends to get his front foot stuck to the ground sometimes and his follow through leaves him falling a bit to the West of the teepad as a result.

 

[blayed]

Normally I find myself agreeing with Sheep but when I went to Drew Gibson's clinic in January, someone asked about grip locking/rounding and Drew was like "oh grip locking is very real. Trust me, I don't round and I have had some BAD grip locks". Also seeing Simon's shot where the disc goes backwards, maybe there is a true grip lock.

But most of the time I agree it's some mismatch in timing or alignment that causes you to release late (ie at 11 o clock instead of 10 o clock)

Re: Robbie's form I follow his videos sometimes. I obviously am not an expert on mechanics so I won't comment on that, but like while I get that the idea is to throw far with low effort, his throw seems too low effort. Like his max distance drives look like the way I would throw a midrange in the woods. Even people with good and efficient mechanics (ie SW22 or pros) you can typically see the effort in the brief moment in which the "hit" (acceleration) happens, but with Robbie it looks like he's just trying to throw a distance driver as smoothly as possible when he needs to give it a little oomph

 

[Jaani]

I've had a bad griplock but with an Ultra-Star. I had it on video, and I couldn't see anything wrong with that throw other than it stuck to my index finger and went right. My finger was hurting for two weeks.

I do remember that I felt my back foot slipping and because of that I might have tried to stop the throw, but was too late. Though again, rhe video doesn't show any of this, so maybe the back foot thing was actually a reaction to my griplock. It happens so fast that the brain easily looses the actual order or what happened.

Anyway, that was with an Ultra-Star, and I can only remember that one time. Other grip locks have propably been just bad timing.

Still, I would never teach anybody to intentionally grip lock anything to the target.

 

[Sheep]

Still, I would never teach anybody to intentionally grip lock anything to the target.

Yeah, that's kind of the whole point of this.

I believe grip locks are real, but rarely occur. But generally the fault of something essentially destroying the buildup of the chain to get the disc out, instead it just falls apart and never really happens until so late that the disc comes out behind or some really goofie spot that makes 0 sense.

That shanked shot most people have was not a grip lock and they just keep calling it that.

Then now were going to teach people to purposefully shank shots by encouraging them to grip lock on target.

ugh.


I've had true grip lock myself, But when you do that sort of thing, the disc comes out behind you like in the video with simon and the others.
They just either catch on your finger or something really really strange.

Normally I find myself agreeing with Sheep but when I went to Drew Gibson's clinic in January, someone asked about grip locking/rounding and Drew was like "oh grip locking is very real. Trust me, I don't round and I have had some BAD grip locks". Also seeing Simon's shot where the disc goes backwards, maybe there is a true grip lock.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm sure when pro's have a bobble in their throw they call it grip lock to. They are not perfect humans and make mistakes as well.
It's hard telling to know what he calls "grip lock" without watching the throw itself and being able to see "did he slip, did he just get lazy in his form" etc.

 

[foxdawg10]

Yeah, that's kind of the whole point of this.

I believe grip locks are real, but rarely occur. But generally the fault of something essentially destroying the buildup of the chain to get the disc out, instead it just falls apart and never really happens until so late that the disc comes out behind or some really goofie spot that makes 0 sense.

That shanked shot most people have was not a grip lock and they just keep calling it that.

Then now were going to teach people to purposefully shank shots by encouraging them to grip lock on target.

ugh.


I've had true grip lock myself, But when you do that sort of thing, the disc comes out behind you like in the video with simon and the others.
They just either catch on your finger or something really really strange.




Yeah, pretty much. I'm sure when pro's have a bobble in their throw they call it grip lock to. They are not perfect humans and make mistakes as well.
It's hard telling to know what he calls "grip lock" without watching the throw itself and being able to see "did he slip, did he just get lazy in his form" etc.

Back in the day when I started in 1998, the OG players used to call any bad pull a "griplock", and any opposite shot an "early release program", lol. They had no formal definition, it was just something they used to inject humor into a really bad shot by the newbies.

Technology wasn't what it is today, and the level of understanding of form and teaching isn't what it is today. It seems like with today's tools it's possible to really analyze and fix these types of errors if they happen often and you are able to get it on camera.

When I was learning, it seems like the "griplock" ended up being my longest shot when it did happen, but I suspect you are right that it was likely caused by misalignment, bad body position, etc. But coincidentally maybe that "bad" alignment actually let my body do what it needed to do to get a good shot, only in the way wrong direction. That feel of what a powerful shot felt like actually helped me get some good feedback, and I think allowed me to correct my aiming / alignment issues.

 

[air show]

One thing I know for sure is that I grip lock much more often when I'm stoned.

 

[Brychanus]

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Back in the day when I started in 1998, the OG players used to call any bad pull a "griplock", and any opposite shot an "early release program", lol. They had no formal definition, it was just something they used to inject humor into a really bad shot by the newbies.

I had one of these some weeks ago but embarrassingly worse - I was trying to line up some overambitious spike hyzer for a greedy birdie but moving the wrong direction diagonally uphill. I had no business trying the shot. It was like my brain knew better and sent a huge "ABORT!!!" signal to my body just as I was about to plant, and I kinda went limp like a wet noodle and the disc when all the way back around to like my 7 o'clock as I crumpled laughing into the ground. I even remember the disc sorta looping back off my index finger like Jaani's talking about.

The 15-year vet I was playing took a puff on his cigarette as the disc sailed behind him toward the previous tee and said in his characteristic monotone "wow, never seen one quite like that before." Since I almost hit him in the face when he was standing almost directly behind me, I understand that he's allowed to make fun of me for it for the rest of my life.

Other than whatever that weird ABORT was, for me whatever people call griplock or WTF Richard are usually when I'm landing too open to the target in one way or another and/or swinging too "over the top" of the plant leg. I'm sure there are other species depending on what we're talking about (Sard0nyx's semantics point).

 

[timothy42b]

I don't call what I do a griplock and I'm not sure I understand the turn.

When a shot gets away from me, it annies right 30 to 45 degrees and just keeps on turning. They're probably at least 50% farther than my normal throw, sometimes way more, and I suspect if I'd hyzered like I planned they would have been on target.

But here's the thing. I can't throw so hard that I can't hold onto it. I don't see how any beginner can, and I have some skepticism about people throwing fairly hard, that maybe they think they're trying to hold on until it rips out, but they "help" it without realizing. Possible?

 

[Random Ass Hero]

�� So just to be clear a late release at around 3:30 or 4:00 O'clock isn't a grip lock. It's just me having terrible noob form, bad timing, and having a poor brace correct?

What would you guys recommend I work on to remedy my horrible shanking? It happens 2 or 3 times around. Since I'm a novice with about 2 months in I'm currently the following drills since I'm trying to figure things out.
For the upper body.
Closed shoulder snap drill
Beto Drill 2.0 on the front leg only and standing regularly.
For the lower body
Crush the can
Hershiser
Butt wipe
One thing I'm still unsure about is my bladed stance after the stride. Still trying to figure that piece of the puzzle out.

Thanks for the advice in advance form guru's.

 

[Brychanus]

Re: Robbie's form I follow his videos sometimes. I obviously am not an expert on mechanics so I won't comment on that, but like while I get that the idea is to throw far with low effort, his throw seems too low effort. Like his max distance drives look like the way I would throw a midrange in the woods. Even people with good and efficient mechanics (ie SW22 or pros) you can typically see the effort in the brief moment in which the "hit" (acceleration) happens, but with Robbie it looks like he's just trying to throw a distance driver as smoothly as possible when he needs to give it a little oomph

I think there's good visual evidence that there's well-synced effort especially in mashes. There's a little variability in sequences but you start to see it especially as players plant (resist collapse), start slinging forward (obliques unloading) the disc enters the pocket and they "clamp down" (resist early ejection, hammer the disc out). I think that's consistent with what SW likes to call "resist harder in the plant and pound the hammer out." The trick is that you still want a smooth, fast acceleration curve with that effort unfolding along it.

I got this easier on one leg but started playing with it again the last couple weeks to improve standstills & x-step. I play a little "minigame" on the course where I try to move as slowly as possible with the most efficient acceleration as I drop into the plant. The game is to lob the discs past the current basket at decreasing effort. I think (hope) slowing down and spreading out that acceleration force as much as possible can help you with that smooth swing while maximizing what you get from that effortful component. In my case it seems to help calm my drive leg down from extending or shoving too much in x-step.



PS anyone got that awesome closeup pick of Ezra's "huckface" as the disc enters the pocket?

 

[hisdudeness47]

I liked the robby c video up until he started in on the "grip lock on target" thing.

Cause I believe we really need to stop letting this excuse fly and call it what it is.

A lot of people do not grip the disc well enough, and the subject as a whole is not talked about much. just the same for grip shapes and such.

The whole point of using the "grip lock" analogy is to try and drive you to that feeling, but people who grip lock are either rounding really bad, or its an aim thing as I stated.

So what they are going to start doing is searching for that "grip lock" throw, either hurting themselves, or just making their form worse and worse. And that's because we explain a mechanic incorrectly as grip lock, when it has absolutely nothing to do with "grip locking" the disc 99% of the time.

Generally its players making an excuse as to why they pulled the disc either via rounding/bad form or not setting their body up properly and being lazy, but getting a good kinetic chain as their body does the motion out of the desired time.


Kind of to the point though on the foundation podcast stuff. People get crazy ideas like slinky does with stuff, or others because they take things to seriously and people go try dumb things.
And... yeah. It's just madening to try and work so hard and 1 or 2 people can make a video with bad information, or miss explain something and it screws up tons of work from everyone else.

We would get along really well on the course. I can only stifle snarky responses to people saying "grip locked it" so much. Hey at least it's better than blaming the disc.

People would learn much faster if they were honest with themselves and accepted responsibility for their shank into an early tree. Can't progress without failure. Wear it.

 

[ChrisinFL]

I had one practice swing behind a tee when I threw a disc to my 5:00.

ROFL.

 

[ChrisinFL]

Let's see if makeagif works, Simon in a sudden death playoff:

ROFL!!! Laughing so hard, literally tears in my eyes!

 

[ChrisinFL]

I had one of these some weeks ago but embarrassingly worse - I was trying to line up some overambitious spike hyzer for a greedy birdie but moving the wrong direction diagonally uphill. I had no business trying the shot. It was like my brain knew better and sent a huge "ABORT!!!" signal to my body just as I was about to plant, and I kinda went limp like a wet noodle and the disc when all the way back around to like my 7 o'clock as I crumpled laughing into the ground. I even remember the disc sorta looping back off my index finger like Jaani's talking about.

The 15-year vet I was playing took a puff on his cigarette as the disc sailed behind him toward the previous tee and said in his characteristic monotone "wow, never seen one quite like that before." Since I almost hit him in the face when he was standing almost directly behind me, I understand that he's allowed to make fun of me for it for the rest of my life.

Other than whatever that weird ABORT was, for me whatever people call griplock or WTF Richard are usually when I'm landing too open to the target in one way or another and/or swinging too "over the top" of the plant leg. I'm sure there are other species depending on what we're talking about (Sard0nyx's semantics point).

No offense to Sheep, but this thread is amazing! Been a while since I laughed this hard! Some of these, well, the site needs a "love it" button to go along with the "like" button! Brychanus, I laughed so hard I cried, and it took about twenty tries to finish reading, "wow, never seen one quite like that before." I knew from context what the quote said, but I could not finish reading it through the laughter and tears!!! It doesn't happen to me often, but it did recently, of course when I was playing in a group of 5 people! I was trying to throw a pretty steep hyzer, to get our (team's) 2nd shot around a tree, and needed full power to get close to the basket (on the course's only par 4). I don't know exactly what I did wrong, but I could tell I got very wonkie. Maybe I was tipping over, partially lost my balance… Anyways, I could not release the disc, so with everyone looking ahead, my throw came out almost exactly 90 degrees off target, straight right, and rockets hard into thick, jungle like bushes. Luckily about 20 feet in it caught a tree that kept it from sailing 100 feet in. On the bright side, and surprisingly, I found the disc very quickly, just seconds after finding a nearly new Leopard DX with no name and number on it. So, an embarrassing moment, but not all was lost. Lol.

 

[Sheep]

No offense to Sheep, but this thread is amazing! Been a while since I laughed this hard! Some of these, well, the site needs a "love it" button to go along with the "like" button! Brychanus, I laughed so hard I cried, and it took about twenty tries to finish reading, "wow, never seen one quite like that before." I knew from context what the quote said, but I could not finish reading it through the laughter and tears!!! It doesn't happen to me often, but it did recently, of course when I was playing in a group of 5 people! I was trying to throw a pretty steep hyzer, to get our (team's) 2nd shot around a tree, and needed full power to get close to the basket (on the course's only par 4). I don't know exactly what I did wrong, but I could tell I got very wonkie. Maybe I was tipping over, partially lost my balance… Anyways, I could not release the disc, so with everyone looking ahead, my throw came out almost exactly 90 degrees off target, straight right, and rockets hard into thick, jungle like bushes. Luckily about 20 feet in it caught a tree that kept it from sailing 100 feet in. On the bright side, and surprisingly, I found the disc very quickly, just seconds after finding a nearly new Leopard DX with no name and number on it. So, an embarrassing moment, but not all was lost. Lol.

It's unfortunate to be controversial on the topic to make it hit home.

Can you "grip lock" ... well, technically no. but in a sense yes.

A lot of times whats happening is when we throw it behind us like that, cause i've done this like 4 or 5 times on practice swings where its just calm and smooth, the disc just ... whoops.
We built a kinetic chain that happened to peak there.

So when we end up doing like the simon gif ahead, its not "grip lock." It's a bad kinetic chain build that peaks when the disc releases.

Our goal when throwing is to try and hang on to the disc, leverage is what rips it out of our hands, which is why wrist posture and all the other mechanics are so important to build that chain to create leverage.

So if you're just doing some casual stuff, or concentrating on some weird things and you forget, for instance, to switch to that fan grip to get the disc to come out.
Whooopsie, out it comes behind you, cause you were throwing so soft.