Tone Pole/object course design vs baskets

[BrotherDave]

Say you're tasked with designing a tone pole (or object) course. What do's and don't's would you have as opposed to a conventional course with baskets? Obviously some universal don't's like throwing over roads, close proximity to ball fields, etc but are there any wrinkles that are different?

For example, do par 4's and par 5's have the same appeal on a tone pole course? Yea or nay on blind shots? Would open holes be preferable since the targets don't stand out as much?

opcorn:

 

[BuzzSharpe]

Of course, the primary positive about tone pole/object targets versus baskets is the tremendous cost savings. Whether you use commercially manufactured or homemade tone poles, painted wooden posts or PVC pipe attached to metal rods, like the original targets at Cedarock and Wellspring, you will save thousands of dollars, while still achieving the basic goal of installing a new disc golf course.
Tone poles or other similar targets should also require much less installation preparation and production, resulting in less negative environmental impact.
I don't see any particularly different 'wrinkles' that would mandate differentiating design objectives. Par 4's and 5's and blind shots should work as well, regardless of target type. Perhaps the one big consideration would be to have poles or posts of sufficient diameter, with or without straight down chains, like Yadkinville, to make the target size comparable to baskets. As for visibility, particularly in the woods, shiny metallic silver tone poles should be as easily seeable as any non-DisCatcher basket. Bright white paint, like at Cedarock/ Wellspring, or orange, like at Yadkinville Outback would make the targets easy to spot among the trees, as well as out in the open.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

biggest difference is all the putting area in which to hole out being removed with a pole/tone hole. not sure exact increase in difficulty but surely has to be some. the "easy par 3" might play more like a true par 3.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Post targets can produce lower scores versus baskets depending on the diameter. A 6" diameter post with a 22" painted area (height of basket target zone) is a bigger target than a basket and you never have cut thrus or bounce outs. I think we calculated one time that a 4" diameter post was about the closest match to a basket's holing out ability.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Post targets can produce lower scores versus baskets depending on the diameter. A 6" diameter post with a 22" painted area (height of basket target zone) is a bigger target than a basket and you never have cut thrus or bounce outs. I think we calculated one time that a 4" diameter post was about the closest match to a basket's holing out ability.

Interesting... so if I'm interpreting that correctly, that basically translates to "the sweet spot for a typical basket is about 4" wide diameter around the pole." Obviously, the sweet spot doesn't extend out to the full diameter of the chains, but it certainly seems bigger than 4". That's just my gut feeling based on observation. I assume Chuck's statement is based on some manner of empirical data.

Seems like Aim thinks it's harder to putt out on a post than a basket.
Sorry for the thread drift Dave... I realize that's not really course design related. Just found the comment intriguing.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

As for the design aspect, having played a few post courses, I suggest keeping the number of holes with blind approaches fairly low.

While I think they make for a more interesting round, it can be hard to tell if you've actually holed out on a 150-180 footer around a blind corner, especially if there's thick brush between your lie and the pole, and/or any substantial background or road noise near by. All you know is it looked like it had a chance when it left your field of vision, and it's lying pretty close to the post... but did you actually hit it, or merely park it?

To that end, objects that really ring would be preferable.

 

[sidewinder22]

You can hang put tone poles higher and not have to worry about retrieval. The only issue with blind tones is that you would them loud enough to hear an ace or whatnot.

 

[sidewinder22]

Also death putts may not sit, so they may become made death putt roll-a-ways.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Interesting... so if I'm interpreting that correctly, that basically translates to "the sweet spot for a typical basket is about 4" wide diameter around the pole." Obviously, the sweet spot doesn't extend out to the full diameter of the chains, but it certainly seems bigger than 4". That's just my gut feeling based on observation. I assume Chuck's statement is based on some manner of empirical data.

Seems like Aim is thinking it's harder to putt out on a post than a basket.
Sorry for the thread drift Dave... I realize that's not really course design related. Just found the comment intriguing.

If you think of a disc flying level, the "sweet spot is about 4" plus the 21cm width of the disc which totals 12.3 inches or 31cm. The chain support width ranges between 53-60cm with the width of the outer chain envelope at the top ranging from 50-57cm. That leaves only 10-13cm of chains near the top to stop the outer half of the disc thrown at the far edge of the sweet spot calculated above. Essentially, the width of the outer chains at the top is within +/- 1-2cm of the width of one disc on either side of the pipe plus 4" in-between them.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Also death putts may not sit, so they may become made death putt roll-a-ways.

Hitting a big putt, and still having to walk down a hill to retrieve your putter, and then back up? That's just wrong! :thmbdown:

Variation on that theme: Is it OK to have death putt with rollaway potential as long as the downhill follows the flow to next tee?

 

[BrotherDave]

Interesting... so if I'm interpreting that correctly, that basically translates to "the sweet spot for a typical basket is about 4" wide diameter around the pole." Obviously, the sweet spot doesn't extend out to the full diameter of the chains, but it certainly seems bigger than 4". That's just my gut feeling based on observation. I assume Chuck's statement is based on some manner of empirical data.

Seems like Aim thinks it's harder to putt out on a post than a basket.
Sorry for the thread drift Dave... I realize that's not really course design related. Just found the comment intriguing.

No no, it's all good. Parsing out the particulars between basket and pole courses is what I'm looking for. :thmbup:

You can hang put tone poles higher and not have to worry about retrieval. The only issue with blind tones is that you would them loud enough to hear an ace or whatnot.

Oh, I hadn't thought of that! That is an interesting dynamic. opcorn:

 

[Cgkdisc]

Play can be faster because next putter doesn't have to wait for the previous putter to remove disc from basket before proceeding.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Post targets can produce lower scores versus baskets depending on the diameter. A 6" diameter post with a 22" painted area (height of basket target zone) is a bigger target than a basket and you never have cut thrus or bounce outs. I think we calculated one time that a 4" diameter post was about the closest match to a basket's holing out ability.

having a really hard time with this considering you can land in the big huge cage and hardly use chains to make a putt. i think our baskets "grab" way more putts vs spit out. having thrown at a tree stump in the yard regularly it seems harder vs a basket. i swear there has to be more catching area vs a 4" diameter post on even my crap costco basket.

sweet spot makes sense but further out baskets forsurewould have the edge, no?

 

[wolfey]

There are more tone courses around here than basket so here's my $0.02...

1) Good tones (Pender Island, Fir Meadows, Doumont to name a few) are great fun to play on! The sound of the CLANG ringing through the forest followed by the cheers of the players is pretty awesome.

2) Metal (aluminum irrigation pipe, 30lb propane tanks) mounted on a wooden post will ring LOUD when hit solidly and even a slight glancing hit will produce a pretty audible ringing sound. Hitting the post will result in a sickening thud. People will quickly learn to be quiet when they think they have an ace run on a blind shot.

3) 4-6" diameter by 22-24" length is a pretty accurate facsimile for the sweet spot on a basket. The main differences are that a tone will never spit out a "good" putt, but a miss will be more harshly punished. Between the chains, top assembly and cage, there is a lot of metal to stop or at least slow down a missed putt on a basket. Lining up a death putt on a tone has an additional pucker factor that is very real.

4) Having a made putt roll away down a hill does suck. I'm looking at you Cortes.

5) A good course is a good course. Good baskets make it even better, but I will take a good tone over a janky basket any day.

Good luck getting your course in the ground!

 

[sidewinder22]

I guess tone poles wouldn't be ADA compliant.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

1) With the exception of blind shots, you can still see the disc hit, even of you can't hear it.
2) I would think that tones poles would be easier for deaf players than baskets are for blind players. :\

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Anyone know the likelihood of stinging insects taking up residence in hollow poles?
I suppose the more traffic a course gets, the lower the likelihood?

 

[sidewinder22]

I've found wasp nests in regular baskets on courses that get regularly played.

 

[esdubya]

I suppose one big difference is you have way more flexibility over the size of the target on a tone course, and you could even vary the size on each hole to fit your design goals. Short, easier hole? maybe decrease the height to 18" instead of 22". Score spread not so great on a hole? Make target bigger or smaller to help it.

Also, can really play with the location of target as previously mentioned, such as higher or lower than a typical basket location.

Have fun. Make it fun.

We have been playing our league rounds for the past three years on a marked target course using trees. All of the trees have a different diameter and we have been changing the height of the bands to try and get the best target size to match the hole.

Full disclosure: I've always wanted the ability to scale up and scale down the basket size but the manufacturing costs makes this not feasible, at least not now ..