Barefooter
Bogey Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2012
- Messages
- 96
Steve Brinster, Matt Bell.
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Top card pure push putters
- Thread starter Alexplz
- Start date
I think the reason why most of the top putters are a hybrid, is because of the exact thing that makes push putting so good: less joints involved. At some range, depending on your innate athleticism, strength, and build, you just can't generate enough easy velocity to get a good trajectory with a pure push. It's just much less effortless and easy to generate power with more hinges involved, and anytime you have to use excessive effort, you're going to lose consistency.
If you look at a lot of the top putters, they're mostly somewhere in between, and oftentimes you can guess simply based off their build. Take wysocki, whose putting style I would argue is very much more on the push side. It makes sense because he's big and lanky and can generate a lot of velocity with the push motion. On the other hand you have McBeth, who has a much smaller frame, and he's more on the spin side. Both are very effective putters and have adapted the style that best fits their abilities and frame.
If you look at a lot of the top putters, they're mostly somewhere in between, and oftentimes you can guess simply based off their build. Take wysocki, whose putting style I would argue is very much more on the push side. It makes sense because he's big and lanky and can generate a lot of velocity with the push motion. On the other hand you have McBeth, who has a much smaller frame, and he's more on the spin side. Both are very effective putters and have adapted the style that best fits their abilities and frame.
DiscAnarchy
Par Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2016
- Messages
- 162
Feldberg addresses this in one of his clinics.
It's not that the elbow is locked. It's that it doesn't extend during the swing. The elbow is slightly bent, not locked out.
A lot of people on here have a misconception of what the push putt is. AKA loft putt, aka pitch putt, aka shovel putt. It's not about spin but about the release and flight of the disc.
Of the top players many are push putters -- Ricky, Nate S., Jerm, Cale, Nikko, Barry, Champ, Feldy, JohnE, Brinster, among others.
Of the top players many are push putters -- Ricky, Nate S., Jerm, Cale, Nikko, Barry, Champ, Feldy, JohnE, Brinster, among others.
PMantle
* Ace Member *
Can someone post a link to a video clearly showing what a push putt looks like?
The proof can only be in the pudding ... no pun intended actually. The response to your statement is to take someone who was a pure spin putter, and who made it to the elite level as a pure spin putter, then switched to push putt. Talk to them. I know two such people -- Dave Feldberg and Cale Leiviska. And I have talked to them. Both made it to the 1020-rated level player as a pure spin putter, before switching. Both have testified that their ratings went up and scores went down, all else being equal, due to the switch. Now I am going back 7 or 8 years ago, when I'm saying this, but that's the pudding about putting.
And to someone who quoted earlier -- sorry, Cam Todd and Cale Leiviska are push putters. Ask them
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- Joined
- Oct 14, 2008
- Messages
- 4,783
I am not a pro, more like a 925ish player.
I started out as a pure push putter and was a decent putter.
But my putting accuracy fell off at around 25 to 30 feet.
I was willing to put in the time, so I worked to emulate PM's spush putting style.
It was much more difficult to learn and can be difficult to keep dialed in after a layoff, as BrotherDave said earlier in this thread.
However, I am more accurate from distance, less effort is required and it is easier to bend flight around trees.
Inside 15', I'm still pushing. Because I can't use the entire motion from less distance, I tend to pull inside 15'
The main thing is that it takes less effort to get the same distance with a spush PM-style putt.
My term for PM's style is a "sling" putt.
This is just my experience, YMMV.
I started out as a pure push putter and was a decent putter.
But my putting accuracy fell off at around 25 to 30 feet.
I was willing to put in the time, so I worked to emulate PM's spush putting style.
It was much more difficult to learn and can be difficult to keep dialed in after a layoff, as BrotherDave said earlier in this thread.
However, I am more accurate from distance, less effort is required and it is easier to bend flight around trees.
Inside 15', I'm still pushing. Because I can't use the entire motion from less distance, I tend to pull inside 15'
The main thing is that it takes less effort to get the same distance with a spush PM-style putt.
My term for PM's style is a "sling" putt.
This is just my experience, YMMV.
The idea is two fold;
miss less ways, meaning if you are aiming straight and you are throwing straight, you only compensate for up and down
as well as, bio mechanically, its easier to recreate and easier to have better timing
so on an off day you are missing by less and an off day for a person who has many movements will happen more often since any one of their many movements or hitches can possibly be off timing wise that day
OK, big misconception that push putters don't use spin, or use very little spin. The disc has to have spin to fly. The difference is that spin putters use the elbow as a main hinge to create the force, break and extend the elbow then wrist, and putt more along a straight line.
Push putters, (aka loft putt, aka pitch putt, aka shovel putt) uses the shoulder as the main hinge and uses wrist spring to create the force, and the putt goes in a somewhat up and down arc, similar to a free throw in basketball. But we use spin. It's not "spush" in the case of Ricky, Nate S, Jerm, Cale, Nikko, Barry, Champ, Feldy, JohnE, Brinster, etc. The hybrid style (which some of you call spush) is prominent for McBeast, Manibu, Eagle, Miles, Colglazier, etc.
Fyi, Matt Bell, is also a 1000-rated player who used to spin, and now uses push inside the circle (most of the time), but still occasionally spins.
Seppo Paju has made the switch other way. From almost pure push putting to spin putting.
Push putting still at European Masters 2016: https://youtu.be/8FBrEP4gs9s?t=6m49s
Spin putting at Konopiste Open 2017:https://youtu.be/UtnR4gPMs_Q?t=3m39s
F. Howl
* Ace Member *
Nice links...very illustrative.
PMantle
* Ace Member *
I think y'all are making this up. Yes, they are different, but all putting is spin putting. The difference is how one gets to the release point.
knettles
Double Eagle Member
While it might be a slight misconception, push putters definitely use less spin than spin putters. As far as how much less spin, that depends on the player. I once took a white putter and sharpied 1/4 of the disc to see how much spin my putts had. There was a noticeable difference from spin putting and push putting. There was a time period where I was an extreme push putter. Meaning, my disc barely spun at all. It flew like a wounded duck and wasn't very consistent. Now I'm more somewhere in the middle, but still leaning more towards push putting. All I'm saying is, the amount of spin varies greatly from player to player.
We're not making anything up; there are basically two distinct styles, plus some players who hybrid elements of both styles. What's correct is that everyone uses spin, and exactly the point I am trying to make.
What is "called" pure spin putting -- is where the elbow is the hinge and the player putts more or less in a straight line.
What is called pure "push" putting" -- is where the shoulder is the hinge and player putts more or less in an up-to-down arc. The label comes about because we push putters use primarily wrist spring to get the spin and we actually push the disc with the palm of our hand.
Several people have the mistaken perception that there's "spin" putting and "no-spin" putting, and that's just not correct.
I'd agree that the amount of spin varies from player to player; however, the "wounded duck" of very little spin is probably not a correct way to push putt. There's a flaw in that form if that's what the player is getting. The top pros who push putt all have considerable spin.
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knettles
Double Eagle Member
Oh ya, I definitely agree with you on both these points. I'm just curious as to what percentage the spin speed is for a pro (consistent) push putter versus a pro spin putter. 75%? 50%? Maybe less for some people?
Interesting question. MY first thought was to compare myself to a strong spin putter who I know well, like Eric McCabe, but then in my mind, I could only come up with I'd have to take some measurements. In my mind it's more than 50% of his spin, but realistically I really don't know.
PMantle
* Ace Member *
I believe that you believe this.
