JR
* Ace Member *
Hi everone. I think it is appropriate that my first post on this board deals with snap. Since it seems to be the most often reoccurring question on throwing technique in this board.
I have read the articles on this board over and over again. I got a lot of hints and basics. Unfortunately for me it was not enough. Especially on the topic of snap. So I don't wonder if other people haven't got it as well. I got a lot more ideas to try from reading through every topic touching snap on this forum. And I got a lot clearer picture of what should happen. I still have a some unanswered questions in my mind that I think should help averyone else learning snap to conceptualize what needs to be done.
Don't get me wrong, I love the articles and effort and time that Blake and others have put into explaining throwing and snap specifically. I fully realize that not everyone is able to convey in words so complex matters as adding snap and training oneself to notice and manipulate snap. It is no wonder that the question of adding snap resurfaces time and again since there does not seem to be a cookbook recipe of adding snap. I hope that with your help we could be collectively nail down in words how we could teach people to add snap to their throws. I realize that for those of you who already know the ins and outs of snap and have learned it naturally by just doing it without trying to Einstein it in your head into a physics dissertation that it is difficult to take the trouble of breaking the technique down into concepts and words. If we could achieve that it could be compiled into an article so that you gurus wouldn't always have to answer the same question again and again. And it would probably help many more than me in getting full understanding and practical skills needed for utilizing snap to the fullest.
I'm in a good position now to relate to everyone going through the pain of realizing how difficult it is to understand how snap works and how it should be incorporated into throwing technique. I have taken the first step in learning how snap feels in throwing midrange discs with less than full arms speed. So the feeling is not totally unfamiliar to me any more. I also can easily relate to people trying to conceptualize what shoukld be done. My strengths are not in answering what should be done but in making questions that lead to a step by step analysis what sould happen during snap.
Before going into the questions that break down snap I'll relate my experience so far so that you gurus can gauge the lack of competence I have. And appraise where I have gone wrong so far. And give you some kind of reference where I'm coming from. Please do not hesitate to ask me for more details. Currently my throwing hand prevents me from throwing and trying to incorporate what I've learned from reading driving and snap related topics from this forum. I learned a lot more compared to the articles and technique repair section. So trying to get my head adound to what should happen is all I can do.
The faults that I have identified so far from reading this forum are: Off axis torque resulting from incorrect plane of follow through compared to the hyzer angle of the disc. In my case I've been throwing too overstable drivers for my technigue and the speed of the disc leaving my hand. I have a quick hand with very low amount off snap. If I throw muscling as hard as I can I have to concentrate hard on not letting my wrist roll over clockwise. And I'm still not always preventing that mistake from happening. When running with an x-step I throw from about upright position not weight forward. So far I have not tilted my hip to left during hyzer shots that I try to flatten out in flight. I've started to move way into bent elbow from full reac back in my standing still tracing of correct lines done with my remaining good hand(non throwing). I haven't managed more than a couple of dozen throws before I hurt my throwing hand. So I can't comment on the progress from changing technique. I tried to concentrate on the feeling of snap by standing still and utilizing half of my hand strenght and a little turn from my hips and shoulder. This was two months ago. It was -17-21 C so I was really restricted because of clothing. I quess that starting the hip turn, shoulder turn and pull through of the hand was almost concurrent. From non throwing practice with my off arm it seems that I burnt insane amounts of energy in pulling in a straight line with my hand with full power and full acceleration. So my hand reached full speed way before the disc had passed my torso. Rookie mistake judging by what I've learned since and what I've tried in non throwing tests. I had no or very little follow through. I did way too many throws per day and increased weight lifting simultaneously. I'm a noodle arm but not wet noodle arm. I started to feel snap only after I increased hip turn to about half of what I can achieve if I don't concentrate on anything else and hand to 60-70 %.
Since I don't know exactly what to do and have heard conflicting advice I just did not concentrate on gripping the disc hard around snap. I'm used to squeezing at around 50-60 % of my good finger strenght. I just learned to modify my power grip to a more efficient one. I have too small hands for modern drivers. My index finger is 7,2 cm long. The easiest discs to grab for me are Discraft Storm and Flick. I'm 172 cm tall and slightly overweight. So I've been losing energy on the disc on at least two fronts in grip. I squeezed lightly so that clenching my muscles did not hamper my arm speed. I don't have scales to measure my finger strenghts or speedometer to chack my arm speed. I'm definitely not a slouch on arm speed. And that has held my technique back. Since I was able to stay ahead of my friends with similarly poor technique by just muscling harder. Not very wise and efficient and long D way of doing things. I'm in the process of learning away my false habits.
I had no clue about the range of motion with my wrist should be travelling to achieve snap when I started to learn throwing with snap. I just let my hand be loose with just enough sgueezing power to hold the angles on the discs. In my case around 40-60 % range roughly with a Z Buzzz, X Storm and E Sabre. Since I did not know what I was doing I just tried to notice the feeling of snap that I had felt based on the article Grip it to rip it IIRC. IIRC it the article did not state the range the wrist should move from left to right. I'm throwing RHBH. I just let my wrist flap from fully curled to the left to past hand shaking position as far as my wrist goes. This way the range of my shots increased around 5-10 meters and the fade halved in right to left movement.
Since I was just muscling away by maximizing the speed of the disc in a straight line that was how I added steps into my throws. First on then full x-step without run up. I directed my throws into a straight line from start to finish. I did not try to turn my legs and body, but to lean towards the basket. So I had been thundering along at full speed with the disc from somewhere around my torso to as far as my hand could reach straight towards the basket. Bad idea!!! No follow through if you remember... Basically every muscle in my body was used to achieve full speed at the slipping, not ripping, of the disc. And full stop of my hand from all the power I could generate. Bam! You could see it like this: I was unbeknowingly trying to separate my arm to let it fly after the disc towards the basket. Quess why I can't throw now?
I had been throwing flat so I need to get well to see what throwing nose down will do. By getting my muscles all tensed up I can get a power grip 1 down about 25 degrees with a Storm 175 g. With hand muscles loose I can get about 12 degrees down. I can get a couple of degrees more with loose muscles if I manipulate the disc with my fingers resulting in looser grip and increased failure rate. It is ironic that the discs that I can get the nose down with are the ones that don't need that much angle. And not enough nose down with modern drivers. Although RIDT 148 g is 7-10 degrees nose down with about 50 % tense hand muscles which doesn't kill me or my arm speed. If i get my wrist down and drop my hand down from my shoulder about 10 degrees. I don't need to do this as much after I eliminate off axis torque.
With this kind of newbie technique deficient way of throwing I get GPS measured 1,5-4 meters high line drive profile average distance of about 85 meters with about 95 % of the throws landing within +- 5 meters of this distance. With overstable drivers hyzer release to flat flight. Weight 175 class in Star Wraiths but also a 166 and RIDT from 148, 166 and 175 g. Also with heavy Champ Orc, Champ Starfires etc. E Sabre 172 g flies about 80 meters or so. Because of off axis torque and recent arrival of my first Wizard at 172 g in medium super glow I reach only about 45-50 meters. I've thrown 80 meters with 173 g elite pro glow APX. This is in heavy winter clothing and in snow about 20-30 cm thick. My longest throw on hyzer flip in air is with a 166 g Star Wraith at 109 meters with top height of about 10-12 meters. With a skip RIDT 166 g went 112 m. Also in heawy clothing at about -3 C with no wind.
I was a lot less powerful player with perhaps a little worse technique last summer. Then I threw a shot with an171 g SOLF when I tripped and got weight forward too well with spinnin gmovement of my body. The height was too high for my experience to judge accurately since it was on a field wihtout close references. The height was at least 1,3 times the height of a Finnish flag pole. The disc flew with about 75 degrees of anhyzer after the flip and was about 3 degrees of flexing flat when it hit the ground at 115 m for my longest flat ground shot so far. Ironic isn't it that while almost tripping over I threw with better technique than usually and my longest throw? So I really don't know what I can achieve with improvements that I've read of. And after learning to add snap to drivers.
Because of these issues with my technique and my injury I'm not an ideal test subject in trying to learn snap and trying to describe in detail the steps and exercises so that it is universally understandable by following written guide from step to step. At least yet after my hand heals. I'll try to help in creating this kind of article how I can. I do need your analysis, experience etc. Let's try to make this part of learning the game a little easier for everyone and stop Blake from being barraged over and over again with the same questions. Please.
The questions that I need for understanding snap are as follows: when and in which order which parts of the hand move, where to, at which speed, starting when, with what kind of angles between different parts of the hand one should throw, with what kind of tensions in which muscles and with how much pressure one needs to squeeze the disc with which fingers into which direction(s).
Let me try to give more background into these questions by explaining where I am right now and how I got to these ideas. A reality check for me please. I read on this forum that Blake suggested letting the wrist move by acceleration of hand and lower parts of your body less than an inch to the left. I forgot the exact amount. And when the disc is just about to rip out of your hand the wrist should be at handshaking position or half or was it a quarter of an inch turned to the right of the neutral hand shakin position. If you arethinking of horizontal plane. Wrist down is naturally mandatory with enough angle to achieve required release angle for the shot you are attempting. For me it is easy to handle a low thin rim disc such as Storm, Buzzz and very low wide rim Flick so that my hand muscles are loose enough for maximum arm movement speed. The tenser the muscles between elbow and wrist are the slower the arm moves and the lesser the range of motion of the wrist in the horizontal plane is. Hence it is easy for me to understand why Blake suggests such a small wrist movement compared to my first try on maximum wrist movement. It makes sense to me to have as small a possible of movement with as fast as possible of an acceleration with the wrist. To me it seems that maximally fast acceleration at the right time would force the disc to rip out of the hand with the highest of confidence of not getting the disc stuck to your hand. The timing gets harder the faster and smaller the movement is. Also it would seem to me that the faster the shorter movement is the more power is imparted onto the disc.
What I don't know for sure is a plethora of questions. For claritys sake let's move chronologically from start to finish. The basics of the throw such as the possible run up, x-step and turning of the hips are to my knowledge not directly related to snap other than giving correct speed, momentum and direction and giving rhythm to your brain. With the caveat that from what I understand the hand absolutely not should move at all too soon and be pulled by the arm at least too fast and too soon. Here is where I need help in understanding what comes first. So I can not pin point the exact time of the beginning of snap. Disclaimer: I don't have other articles memorized by heart and don't read them writing this. The answer could lie there. But I'm being lazy on this intentionally since I need to know multiple takes on these things to form my opinion. And this is a long post to write and read and requiresa lot of thinking. I wouldn't want to have excess lenght and detail on my part to put off more knowledgeable peole than me from answering. Unfortunately to get a sense of the magnitude of the complexity of the subject I need to ask a lot and give a lot of background of where I'm at in comprhension and throwing skill and how I got there so that others may follow in the steps I've takien and am going to take based on your counsel. So I need to touch issues that are not directly part of strictly snap but do have an effect on how snap feels and when it happens and at which angles of different joints. As there seem to be a lot different techniques and ideas about how to thrwo and how to get to snap.
I've looked at MSDGC 2004, 2005 DVDs frame by frame lately and seen the worlds 2003 and 2004 earlier. I've seen it stated that the disc should rip out of your hand at different locations depending on the source. Some say when your shoulder points to the basket and the hand is in the hand shaking position with the arm pointing 90 left of the direction of the basket. Some say directly at the basket and some have suggested in between versions. Judging by the DVDs most featured players in open division release around 10 o'clock position, that is around 60 degrees left of the basket. There are variations between 9.30 and 11.30. I don't remember having seen anyone at 12 but one did at 9 o'clock.
I'm not sure of what would be best. If one were to throw in a line keeping the disc exactly in a line in space and releasing at or close to 12 o'clock when the elbow needs to shop open more in a larger amount of degrees than in the next version. Is it better to start by pulling the disc a little out from the body when the disc is at starting position of the throw towards your chest as close as it can be as the disc passes your torso and then around the start of the extension of the elbow (is it exactly at the beginning or later, if when?) when the back of the disc is at the same level as your right side(or exactly wherre?) you also start to limit the forward motion of your shoulder and elbow so that the elbow does not go as far towards the basket as the first version where the elbow is the closest point of your body to the basket until the elbow chops the fore arm straight towards the basket.
It might be easier to understand the difference of these techniques by following the tip of the elbow. In version 1 the tip of the elbow does reach a point where it points right at the basket when the arm, hips and legs are at neutral basic standing position as if you were throwing from stand still without using anything lower than your arm with your right ear canal pointing to basket. In version 2 the elbow also leads the movement to around where the discs center passes your right side assuming you are standing in normal stance without using anything lower than your arm to throw the disc with right ear pointing to the basket. The difference starts here. After the center of the disc passes your right side you don't point the tip of the elbow towards the basket as quickly. In version 1 the elbow chop is timed diffrently than version 2. There are naturally several versions of timing and starting points of elbow chop vs the position of the tip of the elbow in relation to your body. I jus give two extreme versions. The reasons come after the descriptions of the extreme cases.
In version 1 the tip of the elbow points towards the basket and then only you start chopping or extending your elbow. It is unlikely that the elbow stays in the same place from the beginning of the extension to when the whole arm, forearm, hand and fingers shebang point towards the basket. Assuming you were to stop the uncoiling of the wrist to hand shaking position and raised the wrist from its proper down position to hand shaking position but at shoulder level. In version 2 you would start the chop way earlier so that as the hand is extended it would be pointing at around 10 o' clock which seems to be the preferred position of disc release on my sample of throwers on DVD quality source material. Where exactly would be the earliest point where the version 2 elbow extension would start is a bit of a mystery to me. What is different about version 2 is that you would also start to extend your hand away from your torso as the disc passes your torso.
Where exactly would the best point to start moving the hand away from your body be I don't know. I'm not sure if symmetry is the key here but I've practiced version 2 with actually hitting my solarplexus right in the middle with the disc lightly glancing and from this position where the elbow is somewhat chopped. From here I start to extend my fore arm towards 10 o'clock position so that the elbow stays at about the same place from the start of the extension of the fore arm to the end. Where I suspect the best place to also start the extension of the wrist to happen in the snap. In version 2 the tip of the elbow would not be on a direct line from four spine to the basket. Since the arm/forearm/hand/finger unit is fully extended towards 10 o'clock at the snap and hit or release of the disc. The unit would of course pass the point where it points towards the basket because of momentum but a while after the release of the disc. If I've understood correctly it is possible to have the disc to fly to several different directions with version 2 unless you have the correct amount of gripping power. With too little power the disc would slip out of your hand to the left of the basket with less than full lenght of flight. With correct form and aiming right into the basket at full lenght and there aren't that many or none that can hold on to the disc so tightly squeezing that with every prior movement done correctly at full power the disc would go a lot to the right at very large percentage of the distance potential. Not over 100 % of the direct line I presume.
Finally to the point of the post. Whew! Bear with me please
You're almost there. Honestly! I have reasons to believe that tehere are pros and cons with both elbow chop timings and directions. Regardless of how you throw you need to keep the disc as close to you body up to some point in time to get your elbow to be bent. Dave Dunipace IIRC said that not beyond 90 degrees or you would lose power but I assume that depending on your body at or close to 90 degrees would be the best way to maximize your power ans speed setting yourself up to the snap and release of the disc.
Here's the nasty big scientific word plyometrics for you. You look up the exact semantic meaning relating to this case if you need to. Understanding the best way of using your body to propel the disc in the most powerful and efficient combination is what I'm after. Since not all of us aren't the fastest and most powerful athletes with the best muscle memory routine with infinitely quick multitasking brain able to correct kazillion things on the fly with our bodies we ought to keep the gap as close as possible by getting 100 % out of the potential of our bodies in perfect technique harnessing our bodies to do the work. Harnessing the body is the key with regards to plyometrics. I'm not trying to repeat what has been said on this topic by more knowledgeable people on the forum(perhaps in the articles as well?). Just trying to show what I know and enlighten people who haven't heard of this. Once again unfortunately I'm at a loss how to exactly get out the last percentages of technique and harnessing physiology.
Laymans explanation of plyometrics follows: Regardless of the version you throwing I've tried to describe earlier you get the disc close to your body as the disc passes your body and your elbow will bend. As it bends it loads up your muscles and tendons like a spring. As you start exending your elbow you release this built up force that you've gained at least partially free to your hand courtesy of prior movements and momentum from much larger muscles beneath shoulders. The hand extension from elbow should be as quick as possible if I understand it correctly.
The reason that I've been writing about elbow and different techniques is that exactly similar versions of joint extension happen at the wrist as they do in the elbow. Again I do not know which version is better. I'm not sure about the timing either. I take it was Blake who wrote in different words that the beginning of the uncoiling of the wrist happens when the elbow is fully extended and cannot move in the direction where it was moving but the shoulders still keep moving. Since anything from shoulders to fingers doesn't stretch the direction of the movement of everything at least from the wrist up to the shoulder changes. If we took an example of the version 1 elbow extension everythin from the wrist to the shoulder would point towards the basket while the wrist would still be coiled fully.
If you did the stupid thing I did injuring my hand without follow through and false direction on preceding movements with legs and torso your hand would not move at all so the power you have generated up to this point would be mostly moving to your wrist causing it to extend towards the basket. If instead preceding movements were spinning you around your wrist would still uncoil and the direction of your movement from the shoulder to the wrist would make a 90 degree turn to the right beginning from the point where the elbow has fully extended. It follows that since the only part that still can move freely without the bones breaking is your coiled wrist. So the wrist can freely uncoil to facing the same direction as the arm and fore arm bringing the fingers to point in the same direction as the upper parts.
What I don't know is whether it is better to wait until the direction change uncoils the wrist automatically and the disc rips out of your hand or should you start to uncoil your wrist with your own muscle power. If powering is good when should it start? With how large a movement in lenght? This relates to the grip strenght and the tenseness of your fore arm muscles and the required angles of the throw.
I do not know how hard I should grip with which fingers exactly and I don't have a clue as to how much pressure exactly I can squeeze with which finger into which direction. With the power grip I squeeze the disc with the pad of my index finger towards my palms and index fingers bases meeting place. The tip of my index finger touches the bottom of the flight plate. I have a lot of unused power here and I will investigate this. I try to push with my lock fingers towards the base of my thumb. The power is way lower than with the index finger. Less with tall wide rimmed discs since I can't reach the flight plate well enough. I have tried eevry other thumb position than middle of the disc. I've varied the downwards pressure of the base of the thumb and the tumb. With the pad or higher parts. All this is likely to practically no avail since I've not squeezed hard enough with my index finger and thumb. I oppose my thumb and index finger and squeeze here too. Untapped potential here too.
I remember having tried to squeeze harder and have seen much greater disc speeds than usually but changed probably incorrectly back to a looser grip as I was throwing too high. And sometimes stalling and in compensation with wrong methods also doing a lot of wormburners. Back then I was bending my left knee too much during the x part of the x step. Since it snowed in the middle of the change I didn't learn enough. Since I couldn't push my self upright with the left leg from the snow. And I forgot the difference the increased grip strenght made. Remembered only the problems. Silly me.
Whatever the needed squeezing power is all of it should be only applied at last possible moment to reach the requird power so that the arms speed is preserved. I don't know when you should start to accelerate with full speed with your arm and with what kind of speed you pul until then. If you do at all. I've concentrated on rotating my hips and shoulders so fast concentrating on that alone that the back of the disc passed my right side so fast that I missed extending my elbow. I had to open my fingers to release the disc into right direction. Too late by 10 degrees. I hadn't moved my arm from the shoulder at all. So I can do parts of the throw much faster than I'm used to doing rhe full throw. And cannot perform any part of the throw as well in the full throw than in practising one single part.
What I'd like to know is at what position the disc is in relation to your body when you accelerate your arm or do you move your arm at all? At which angles three dimensionally are the shoulders, elbow and wrist? Where do the knees point, how much twisting has been done at the hip in which direction? How fast are the aforementioned parts moving in which direction and are you concentrating on quickness instead of clenching muscles like a bodybuilder? In order to be quick you have to stay somewhat loose but how loose is the quickest way? I mean how many percent of muscle tension from relaxed to clenched do you use in each of the muscles from the toes to your arm? If you don't move your arm at all is it wasting muscle power? Intuitively it would seem that the more muscle groups you use the power could be sent to the disc. Also when do you put 100 % into the throw?
This is so long a post that I can't proof read it now and probably forgotten things I meant to ask and forgot describe in greater detail what I have done and what the effects were and how it felt. At this point I think brevity is a virtue If I get enough answers to clarify things for me I might be able to expand on this and fill in the almost inevitable gaps to achieve an abc step by step of how to train for getting snap and feeling it and utilizing it in different situations.
For example What is the movement range of wrist in snap between a full power driver vs mid range throw on a lowish line drive hyzer to flat or totally flat release to flat flight with an example disc and the lenght achieved with proper form for a top player. To give people a reference towards which to strive and give indication of possible technique or physical deficiences compared to pros. So that one can stop fretting about what to improve next and stop second quessing about adequacy of technique and move to other things such as playing or learning cuorse management etc.
With sincere apologies for showing part of the complexity of snap and not being brief and causing migraines. Quess how fun trying to figure all of this has been for me... And really truly humbleness and gratitude towards those have learned to utilise snap also in driving and who can help me and hopefully others to learn more easily than just trial and error. I'm sure that there are those that never learn so. With written detailed instructions a lot many have the possibility to learn before frustration turns them away from trying or at worst from the sport.
Janne Räsänen
PS My first name is not pronounced like it's in English and it is a male name thank you very much
I have read the articles on this board over and over again. I got a lot of hints and basics. Unfortunately for me it was not enough. Especially on the topic of snap. So I don't wonder if other people haven't got it as well. I got a lot more ideas to try from reading through every topic touching snap on this forum. And I got a lot clearer picture of what should happen. I still have a some unanswered questions in my mind that I think should help averyone else learning snap to conceptualize what needs to be done.
Don't get me wrong, I love the articles and effort and time that Blake and others have put into explaining throwing and snap specifically. I fully realize that not everyone is able to convey in words so complex matters as adding snap and training oneself to notice and manipulate snap. It is no wonder that the question of adding snap resurfaces time and again since there does not seem to be a cookbook recipe of adding snap. I hope that with your help we could be collectively nail down in words how we could teach people to add snap to their throws. I realize that for those of you who already know the ins and outs of snap and have learned it naturally by just doing it without trying to Einstein it in your head into a physics dissertation that it is difficult to take the trouble of breaking the technique down into concepts and words. If we could achieve that it could be compiled into an article so that you gurus wouldn't always have to answer the same question again and again. And it would probably help many more than me in getting full understanding and practical skills needed for utilizing snap to the fullest.
I'm in a good position now to relate to everyone going through the pain of realizing how difficult it is to understand how snap works and how it should be incorporated into throwing technique. I have taken the first step in learning how snap feels in throwing midrange discs with less than full arms speed. So the feeling is not totally unfamiliar to me any more. I also can easily relate to people trying to conceptualize what shoukld be done. My strengths are not in answering what should be done but in making questions that lead to a step by step analysis what sould happen during snap.
Before going into the questions that break down snap I'll relate my experience so far so that you gurus can gauge the lack of competence I have. And appraise where I have gone wrong so far. And give you some kind of reference where I'm coming from. Please do not hesitate to ask me for more details. Currently my throwing hand prevents me from throwing and trying to incorporate what I've learned from reading driving and snap related topics from this forum. I learned a lot more compared to the articles and technique repair section. So trying to get my head adound to what should happen is all I can do.
The faults that I have identified so far from reading this forum are: Off axis torque resulting from incorrect plane of follow through compared to the hyzer angle of the disc. In my case I've been throwing too overstable drivers for my technigue and the speed of the disc leaving my hand. I have a quick hand with very low amount off snap. If I throw muscling as hard as I can I have to concentrate hard on not letting my wrist roll over clockwise. And I'm still not always preventing that mistake from happening. When running with an x-step I throw from about upright position not weight forward. So far I have not tilted my hip to left during hyzer shots that I try to flatten out in flight. I've started to move way into bent elbow from full reac back in my standing still tracing of correct lines done with my remaining good hand(non throwing). I haven't managed more than a couple of dozen throws before I hurt my throwing hand. So I can't comment on the progress from changing technique. I tried to concentrate on the feeling of snap by standing still and utilizing half of my hand strenght and a little turn from my hips and shoulder. This was two months ago. It was -17-21 C so I was really restricted because of clothing. I quess that starting the hip turn, shoulder turn and pull through of the hand was almost concurrent. From non throwing practice with my off arm it seems that I burnt insane amounts of energy in pulling in a straight line with my hand with full power and full acceleration. So my hand reached full speed way before the disc had passed my torso. Rookie mistake judging by what I've learned since and what I've tried in non throwing tests. I had no or very little follow through. I did way too many throws per day and increased weight lifting simultaneously. I'm a noodle arm but not wet noodle arm. I started to feel snap only after I increased hip turn to about half of what I can achieve if I don't concentrate on anything else and hand to 60-70 %.
Since I don't know exactly what to do and have heard conflicting advice I just did not concentrate on gripping the disc hard around snap. I'm used to squeezing at around 50-60 % of my good finger strenght. I just learned to modify my power grip to a more efficient one. I have too small hands for modern drivers. My index finger is 7,2 cm long. The easiest discs to grab for me are Discraft Storm and Flick. I'm 172 cm tall and slightly overweight. So I've been losing energy on the disc on at least two fronts in grip. I squeezed lightly so that clenching my muscles did not hamper my arm speed. I don't have scales to measure my finger strenghts or speedometer to chack my arm speed. I'm definitely not a slouch on arm speed. And that has held my technique back. Since I was able to stay ahead of my friends with similarly poor technique by just muscling harder. Not very wise and efficient and long D way of doing things. I'm in the process of learning away my false habits.
I had no clue about the range of motion with my wrist should be travelling to achieve snap when I started to learn throwing with snap. I just let my hand be loose with just enough sgueezing power to hold the angles on the discs. In my case around 40-60 % range roughly with a Z Buzzz, X Storm and E Sabre. Since I did not know what I was doing I just tried to notice the feeling of snap that I had felt based on the article Grip it to rip it IIRC. IIRC it the article did not state the range the wrist should move from left to right. I'm throwing RHBH. I just let my wrist flap from fully curled to the left to past hand shaking position as far as my wrist goes. This way the range of my shots increased around 5-10 meters and the fade halved in right to left movement.
Since I was just muscling away by maximizing the speed of the disc in a straight line that was how I added steps into my throws. First on then full x-step without run up. I directed my throws into a straight line from start to finish. I did not try to turn my legs and body, but to lean towards the basket. So I had been thundering along at full speed with the disc from somewhere around my torso to as far as my hand could reach straight towards the basket. Bad idea!!! No follow through if you remember... Basically every muscle in my body was used to achieve full speed at the slipping, not ripping, of the disc. And full stop of my hand from all the power I could generate. Bam! You could see it like this: I was unbeknowingly trying to separate my arm to let it fly after the disc towards the basket. Quess why I can't throw now?
I had been throwing flat so I need to get well to see what throwing nose down will do. By getting my muscles all tensed up I can get a power grip 1 down about 25 degrees with a Storm 175 g. With hand muscles loose I can get about 12 degrees down. I can get a couple of degrees more with loose muscles if I manipulate the disc with my fingers resulting in looser grip and increased failure rate. It is ironic that the discs that I can get the nose down with are the ones that don't need that much angle. And not enough nose down with modern drivers. Although RIDT 148 g is 7-10 degrees nose down with about 50 % tense hand muscles which doesn't kill me or my arm speed. If i get my wrist down and drop my hand down from my shoulder about 10 degrees. I don't need to do this as much after I eliminate off axis torque.
With this kind of newbie technique deficient way of throwing I get GPS measured 1,5-4 meters high line drive profile average distance of about 85 meters with about 95 % of the throws landing within +- 5 meters of this distance. With overstable drivers hyzer release to flat flight. Weight 175 class in Star Wraiths but also a 166 and RIDT from 148, 166 and 175 g. Also with heavy Champ Orc, Champ Starfires etc. E Sabre 172 g flies about 80 meters or so. Because of off axis torque and recent arrival of my first Wizard at 172 g in medium super glow I reach only about 45-50 meters. I've thrown 80 meters with 173 g elite pro glow APX. This is in heavy winter clothing and in snow about 20-30 cm thick. My longest throw on hyzer flip in air is with a 166 g Star Wraith at 109 meters with top height of about 10-12 meters. With a skip RIDT 166 g went 112 m. Also in heawy clothing at about -3 C with no wind.
I was a lot less powerful player with perhaps a little worse technique last summer. Then I threw a shot with an171 g SOLF when I tripped and got weight forward too well with spinnin gmovement of my body. The height was too high for my experience to judge accurately since it was on a field wihtout close references. The height was at least 1,3 times the height of a Finnish flag pole. The disc flew with about 75 degrees of anhyzer after the flip and was about 3 degrees of flexing flat when it hit the ground at 115 m for my longest flat ground shot so far. Ironic isn't it that while almost tripping over I threw with better technique than usually and my longest throw? So I really don't know what I can achieve with improvements that I've read of. And after learning to add snap to drivers.
Because of these issues with my technique and my injury I'm not an ideal test subject in trying to learn snap and trying to describe in detail the steps and exercises so that it is universally understandable by following written guide from step to step. At least yet after my hand heals. I'll try to help in creating this kind of article how I can. I do need your analysis, experience etc. Let's try to make this part of learning the game a little easier for everyone and stop Blake from being barraged over and over again with the same questions. Please.
The questions that I need for understanding snap are as follows: when and in which order which parts of the hand move, where to, at which speed, starting when, with what kind of angles between different parts of the hand one should throw, with what kind of tensions in which muscles and with how much pressure one needs to squeeze the disc with which fingers into which direction(s).
Let me try to give more background into these questions by explaining where I am right now and how I got to these ideas. A reality check for me please. I read on this forum that Blake suggested letting the wrist move by acceleration of hand and lower parts of your body less than an inch to the left. I forgot the exact amount. And when the disc is just about to rip out of your hand the wrist should be at handshaking position or half or was it a quarter of an inch turned to the right of the neutral hand shakin position. If you arethinking of horizontal plane. Wrist down is naturally mandatory with enough angle to achieve required release angle for the shot you are attempting. For me it is easy to handle a low thin rim disc such as Storm, Buzzz and very low wide rim Flick so that my hand muscles are loose enough for maximum arm movement speed. The tenser the muscles between elbow and wrist are the slower the arm moves and the lesser the range of motion of the wrist in the horizontal plane is. Hence it is easy for me to understand why Blake suggests such a small wrist movement compared to my first try on maximum wrist movement. It makes sense to me to have as small a possible of movement with as fast as possible of an acceleration with the wrist. To me it seems that maximally fast acceleration at the right time would force the disc to rip out of the hand with the highest of confidence of not getting the disc stuck to your hand. The timing gets harder the faster and smaller the movement is. Also it would seem to me that the faster the shorter movement is the more power is imparted onto the disc.
What I don't know for sure is a plethora of questions. For claritys sake let's move chronologically from start to finish. The basics of the throw such as the possible run up, x-step and turning of the hips are to my knowledge not directly related to snap other than giving correct speed, momentum and direction and giving rhythm to your brain. With the caveat that from what I understand the hand absolutely not should move at all too soon and be pulled by the arm at least too fast and too soon. Here is where I need help in understanding what comes first. So I can not pin point the exact time of the beginning of snap. Disclaimer: I don't have other articles memorized by heart and don't read them writing this. The answer could lie there. But I'm being lazy on this intentionally since I need to know multiple takes on these things to form my opinion. And this is a long post to write and read and requiresa lot of thinking. I wouldn't want to have excess lenght and detail on my part to put off more knowledgeable peole than me from answering. Unfortunately to get a sense of the magnitude of the complexity of the subject I need to ask a lot and give a lot of background of where I'm at in comprhension and throwing skill and how I got there so that others may follow in the steps I've takien and am going to take based on your counsel. So I need to touch issues that are not directly part of strictly snap but do have an effect on how snap feels and when it happens and at which angles of different joints. As there seem to be a lot different techniques and ideas about how to thrwo and how to get to snap.
I've looked at MSDGC 2004, 2005 DVDs frame by frame lately and seen the worlds 2003 and 2004 earlier. I've seen it stated that the disc should rip out of your hand at different locations depending on the source. Some say when your shoulder points to the basket and the hand is in the hand shaking position with the arm pointing 90 left of the direction of the basket. Some say directly at the basket and some have suggested in between versions. Judging by the DVDs most featured players in open division release around 10 o'clock position, that is around 60 degrees left of the basket. There are variations between 9.30 and 11.30. I don't remember having seen anyone at 12 but one did at 9 o'clock.
I'm not sure of what would be best. If one were to throw in a line keeping the disc exactly in a line in space and releasing at or close to 12 o'clock when the elbow needs to shop open more in a larger amount of degrees than in the next version. Is it better to start by pulling the disc a little out from the body when the disc is at starting position of the throw towards your chest as close as it can be as the disc passes your torso and then around the start of the extension of the elbow (is it exactly at the beginning or later, if when?) when the back of the disc is at the same level as your right side(or exactly wherre?) you also start to limit the forward motion of your shoulder and elbow so that the elbow does not go as far towards the basket as the first version where the elbow is the closest point of your body to the basket until the elbow chops the fore arm straight towards the basket.
It might be easier to understand the difference of these techniques by following the tip of the elbow. In version 1 the tip of the elbow does reach a point where it points right at the basket when the arm, hips and legs are at neutral basic standing position as if you were throwing from stand still without using anything lower than your arm with your right ear canal pointing to basket. In version 2 the elbow also leads the movement to around where the discs center passes your right side assuming you are standing in normal stance without using anything lower than your arm to throw the disc with right ear pointing to the basket. The difference starts here. After the center of the disc passes your right side you don't point the tip of the elbow towards the basket as quickly. In version 1 the elbow chop is timed diffrently than version 2. There are naturally several versions of timing and starting points of elbow chop vs the position of the tip of the elbow in relation to your body. I jus give two extreme versions. The reasons come after the descriptions of the extreme cases.
In version 1 the tip of the elbow points towards the basket and then only you start chopping or extending your elbow. It is unlikely that the elbow stays in the same place from the beginning of the extension to when the whole arm, forearm, hand and fingers shebang point towards the basket. Assuming you were to stop the uncoiling of the wrist to hand shaking position and raised the wrist from its proper down position to hand shaking position but at shoulder level. In version 2 you would start the chop way earlier so that as the hand is extended it would be pointing at around 10 o' clock which seems to be the preferred position of disc release on my sample of throwers on DVD quality source material. Where exactly would be the earliest point where the version 2 elbow extension would start is a bit of a mystery to me. What is different about version 2 is that you would also start to extend your hand away from your torso as the disc passes your torso.
Where exactly would the best point to start moving the hand away from your body be I don't know. I'm not sure if symmetry is the key here but I've practiced version 2 with actually hitting my solarplexus right in the middle with the disc lightly glancing and from this position where the elbow is somewhat chopped. From here I start to extend my fore arm towards 10 o'clock position so that the elbow stays at about the same place from the start of the extension of the fore arm to the end. Where I suspect the best place to also start the extension of the wrist to happen in the snap. In version 2 the tip of the elbow would not be on a direct line from four spine to the basket. Since the arm/forearm/hand/finger unit is fully extended towards 10 o'clock at the snap and hit or release of the disc. The unit would of course pass the point where it points towards the basket because of momentum but a while after the release of the disc. If I've understood correctly it is possible to have the disc to fly to several different directions with version 2 unless you have the correct amount of gripping power. With too little power the disc would slip out of your hand to the left of the basket with less than full lenght of flight. With correct form and aiming right into the basket at full lenght and there aren't that many or none that can hold on to the disc so tightly squeezing that with every prior movement done correctly at full power the disc would go a lot to the right at very large percentage of the distance potential. Not over 100 % of the direct line I presume.
Finally to the point of the post. Whew! Bear with me please
You're almost there. Honestly! I have reasons to believe that tehere are pros and cons with both elbow chop timings and directions. Regardless of how you throw you need to keep the disc as close to you body up to some point in time to get your elbow to be bent. Dave Dunipace IIRC said that not beyond 90 degrees or you would lose power but I assume that depending on your body at or close to 90 degrees would be the best way to maximize your power ans speed setting yourself up to the snap and release of the disc.Here's the nasty big scientific word plyometrics for you. You look up the exact semantic meaning relating to this case if you need to. Understanding the best way of using your body to propel the disc in the most powerful and efficient combination is what I'm after. Since not all of us aren't the fastest and most powerful athletes with the best muscle memory routine with infinitely quick multitasking brain able to correct kazillion things on the fly with our bodies we ought to keep the gap as close as possible by getting 100 % out of the potential of our bodies in perfect technique harnessing our bodies to do the work. Harnessing the body is the key with regards to plyometrics. I'm not trying to repeat what has been said on this topic by more knowledgeable people on the forum(perhaps in the articles as well?). Just trying to show what I know and enlighten people who haven't heard of this. Once again unfortunately I'm at a loss how to exactly get out the last percentages of technique and harnessing physiology.
Laymans explanation of plyometrics follows: Regardless of the version you throwing I've tried to describe earlier you get the disc close to your body as the disc passes your body and your elbow will bend. As it bends it loads up your muscles and tendons like a spring. As you start exending your elbow you release this built up force that you've gained at least partially free to your hand courtesy of prior movements and momentum from much larger muscles beneath shoulders. The hand extension from elbow should be as quick as possible if I understand it correctly.
The reason that I've been writing about elbow and different techniques is that exactly similar versions of joint extension happen at the wrist as they do in the elbow. Again I do not know which version is better. I'm not sure about the timing either. I take it was Blake who wrote in different words that the beginning of the uncoiling of the wrist happens when the elbow is fully extended and cannot move in the direction where it was moving but the shoulders still keep moving. Since anything from shoulders to fingers doesn't stretch the direction of the movement of everything at least from the wrist up to the shoulder changes. If we took an example of the version 1 elbow extension everythin from the wrist to the shoulder would point towards the basket while the wrist would still be coiled fully.
If you did the stupid thing I did injuring my hand without follow through and false direction on preceding movements with legs and torso your hand would not move at all so the power you have generated up to this point would be mostly moving to your wrist causing it to extend towards the basket. If instead preceding movements were spinning you around your wrist would still uncoil and the direction of your movement from the shoulder to the wrist would make a 90 degree turn to the right beginning from the point where the elbow has fully extended. It follows that since the only part that still can move freely without the bones breaking is your coiled wrist. So the wrist can freely uncoil to facing the same direction as the arm and fore arm bringing the fingers to point in the same direction as the upper parts.
What I don't know is whether it is better to wait until the direction change uncoils the wrist automatically and the disc rips out of your hand or should you start to uncoil your wrist with your own muscle power. If powering is good when should it start? With how large a movement in lenght? This relates to the grip strenght and the tenseness of your fore arm muscles and the required angles of the throw.
I do not know how hard I should grip with which fingers exactly and I don't have a clue as to how much pressure exactly I can squeeze with which finger into which direction. With the power grip I squeeze the disc with the pad of my index finger towards my palms and index fingers bases meeting place. The tip of my index finger touches the bottom of the flight plate. I have a lot of unused power here and I will investigate this. I try to push with my lock fingers towards the base of my thumb. The power is way lower than with the index finger. Less with tall wide rimmed discs since I can't reach the flight plate well enough. I have tried eevry other thumb position than middle of the disc. I've varied the downwards pressure of the base of the thumb and the tumb. With the pad or higher parts. All this is likely to practically no avail since I've not squeezed hard enough with my index finger and thumb. I oppose my thumb and index finger and squeeze here too. Untapped potential here too.
I remember having tried to squeeze harder and have seen much greater disc speeds than usually but changed probably incorrectly back to a looser grip as I was throwing too high. And sometimes stalling and in compensation with wrong methods also doing a lot of wormburners. Back then I was bending my left knee too much during the x part of the x step. Since it snowed in the middle of the change I didn't learn enough. Since I couldn't push my self upright with the left leg from the snow. And I forgot the difference the increased grip strenght made. Remembered only the problems. Silly me.
Whatever the needed squeezing power is all of it should be only applied at last possible moment to reach the requird power so that the arms speed is preserved. I don't know when you should start to accelerate with full speed with your arm and with what kind of speed you pul until then. If you do at all. I've concentrated on rotating my hips and shoulders so fast concentrating on that alone that the back of the disc passed my right side so fast that I missed extending my elbow. I had to open my fingers to release the disc into right direction. Too late by 10 degrees. I hadn't moved my arm from the shoulder at all. So I can do parts of the throw much faster than I'm used to doing rhe full throw. And cannot perform any part of the throw as well in the full throw than in practising one single part.
What I'd like to know is at what position the disc is in relation to your body when you accelerate your arm or do you move your arm at all? At which angles three dimensionally are the shoulders, elbow and wrist? Where do the knees point, how much twisting has been done at the hip in which direction? How fast are the aforementioned parts moving in which direction and are you concentrating on quickness instead of clenching muscles like a bodybuilder? In order to be quick you have to stay somewhat loose but how loose is the quickest way? I mean how many percent of muscle tension from relaxed to clenched do you use in each of the muscles from the toes to your arm? If you don't move your arm at all is it wasting muscle power? Intuitively it would seem that the more muscle groups you use the power could be sent to the disc. Also when do you put 100 % into the throw?
This is so long a post that I can't proof read it now and probably forgotten things I meant to ask and forgot describe in greater detail what I have done and what the effects were and how it felt. At this point I think brevity is a virtue
If I get enough answers to clarify things for me I might be able to expand on this and fill in the almost inevitable gaps to achieve an abc step by step of how to train for getting snap and feeling it and utilizing it in different situations. For example What is the movement range of wrist in snap between a full power driver vs mid range throw on a lowish line drive hyzer to flat or totally flat release to flat flight with an example disc and the lenght achieved with proper form for a top player. To give people a reference towards which to strive and give indication of possible technique or physical deficiences compared to pros. So that one can stop fretting about what to improve next and stop second quessing about adequacy of technique and move to other things such as playing or learning cuorse management etc.
With sincere apologies for showing part of the complexity of snap and not being brief and causing migraines. Quess how fun trying to figure all of this has been for me... And really truly humbleness and gratitude towards those have learned to utilise snap also in driving and who can help me and hopefully others to learn more easily than just trial and error. I'm sure that there are those that never learn so. With written detailed instructions a lot many have the possibility to learn before frustration turns them away from trying or at worst from the sport.
Janne Räsänen
PS My first name is not pronounced like it's in English and it is a male name thank you very much
