Trying to learn snap and make it easier for others

[JR]

Wow, you actually succeeded in overanalyzing an anecdote aimed at showing you the value of not overanalyzing stuff. I'm impressed.

There are two sides to a coin. Plus the rim It all depends on the perspective. At times both may be right at times only one is suitable. The real key is to know which to use when and why and how to apply the knowledge. The commonly used term for this is called wisdom.

So is it really that I dissect everything more than is needed or is that you don't look closely enough? I'll let everyone decide for themselves and defend my position. Everyone may do as they please. I only suggest deciding for yourself. I have no interest in converting anyone. Free will and all that. I have no agendas here other than to learn and make learning easier for others if possible.

 

[readysetstab]

the whistling analogy is a good one. it illistrated my point perfectly. however, it's obvious that janne is going to do things by analyzing the hell out of them no matter what anyone has to say against that.

I hope that it works for you, janne. just remember the average human brain can only process about 7 to 10 things at once. maybe a couple more if you're a genius. several of those things include staying alive (breathing and whatnot.. even if you don't realize you're thinking about it), walking, looking, listening, etc. so no, you can't think about all of these things while throwing, no matter how easy it may seem while sitting in your computer chair.

at least consider learning one or two of these numbers at a time and getting used to it/them before moving on to the next number. if you don't, you might end up starting over next summer after realizing that you wasted a perfectly good summer this year. then again maybe not, but i wouldn't consider that a challenge to prove me wrong if i were you.

 

[Blake_T1]

GETTING snap is more important for you now than PERFECTING snap.

yes, you get more snap potential with more elbow bend (more bend = smaller angle).

if you can get the timing with however much elbow bend it takes to actually GET the feeling, that is most important. getting any amount of big snap = 425'+ of power. let's say imperfect big snap gets you 440', and perfect big snap (tons of elbow bend) would get you 480'. worry about perfect snap AFTER you are at 440'.

as for the elbow fully extended... this is the same as above. sure, if you can get more elbow extension in the same amount of time, you will have more potential power, but again, whether your arm straightens 2" beyond the hit or at the hit will only matter if you have big snap.

So starting from whichever starting speed one should be smooth in the rate of acceleration past the right pec into whereever the elbow should unbend? After the hit I hazard a quess. I'll have to try different starting speeds and rates of acceleration then.

it isn't uniform. if you want to get technical:

velocity = change in distance/change in time
acceleration = change in velocity/change in time
rate of acceleration = change in acceleration/change in time.

the higher the RATE of acceleration increases, the more potential snap you have. it's all about exploding late and finishing strong THROUGH the shot.

getting snap with a given disc doesn't really matter since if you are accelerating and finishing you should be able to snap a plate, garbage can lid, record, etc.

Which part of the hand is between the disc and the basket?

the part of the hand gripping the disc.

 

[JR]

GETTING snap is more important for you now than PERFECTING snap.

Naturally.

It seems that I have to try to find the latest possible time to start accelerating as fast as possible into the hit and also following through strongly. My recipe for strong follow through is trying to move as quickly as possible with legs, hips, shoulders and arms. After getting the disc as close to the chest as possible. In my experience there's a large difference if you are 2" away from the body. An inch is noticeable in the feeling and extension speed(acceleration) of the elbow.

Which part of the hand is between the disc and the basket?

the part of the hand gripping the disc.

Man do I feel thick right now. I don't get what you mean wrt the position of the hand relative to the disc and the timing. I meant that at the exact moment that the disc has ripped from the fingers but is still a millimeter away from the fingers where are the fingers realtive to the disc? Shouldn't the wrist be down and in handshaking position? Until the wrist uncoils to the handshaking position my hand is between the disc and the basket with the back of the hand being closest to the basket. But I thought that the disc doesn't rip out at this time.

Shouldn't the rip happen after the wrist has uncoiled to handshaking position fingers pointing straight at the basket? If so I can't picture how one should grip the disc to still have the hand between the disc and the basket. If I understood the grip article correctly. Going back for another read. Currently I'd think that after the unbending of the wrist the hand would be on the right side of the disc and the leading edge of the disc is almost half the diameter of the disc closer to the basket than the fingers that also point at the basket. With the back of the hand facing 90 degrees right of the basket.

This ain't easy for sure. To learn I mean. Hope some day I'll be able to smile on my struggling. I'm still grateful and happy tohave rcieved such great advice. Even though konwledge increases the pain of knowing how much I suck and how much I have to learn. Luckily I've learnt to appreciate the challenges of improving my technique. It keeps the game fresh as there's always mew challenges and obstacles to overcome. So thank you for extending my to do list.

Oh the pain and simultaneous excitement of having loads of learning

 

[JR]

the whistling analogy is a good one. it illistrated my point perfectly. however, it's obvious that janne is going to do things by analyzing the hell out of them no matter what anyone has to say against that.

Janne: Quilty as charged and proud of it

I hope that it works for you, janne. just remember the average human brain can only process about 7 to 10 things at once. maybe a couple more if you're a genius. several of those things include staying alive (breathing and whatnot.. even if you don't realize you're thinking about it), walking, looking, listening, etc. so no, you can't think about all of these things while throwing, no matter how easy it may seem while sitting in your computer chair.

Janne: No disagreements whatsoever. I will do as you say. I have done it already a couple of montks ago for the exact reasons you give.

at least consider learning one or two of these numbers at a time and getting used to it/them before moving on to the next number. if you don't, you might end up starting over next summer after realizing that you wasted a perfectly good summer this year. then again maybe not, but i wouldn't consider that a challenge to prove me wrong if i were you.

Janne: My thoughts and training routine exactly. Except I try to nail down every previous part of my technique to be similar everytime so that I don't have to think of those at all. Then I'll concentrate on one new thing at a time only. Anything more and the probability of detecting the changes in feeling decrease dramatically. Too much for me. We certainly are not in disagreement on the actual throwing and practice methods.

It's just that I can't do that now so I meght as well get my head straight while I can't improve anything else. Thanks so very much for your comments. Much appreciated.

 

[Blake_T1]

In my experience there's a large difference if you are 2" away from the body. An inch is noticeable in the feeling and extension speed(acceleration) of the elbow.

if you read your post that i was answering, you were asking about if the elbow is 2" from being unbent vs. perfectly straight.

my response is that if you have the right finish timing, yes, 1 is better, but if you don't have the right finish timing, the 2" really doesn't mean jack since you are better off having imperfect big snap than no snap.

I meant that at the exact moment that the disc has ripped from the fingers but is still a millimeter away from the fingers where are the fingers realtive to the disc?

between the disc and the target

btw, don't focus on wrist opening until AFTER you understand finish power and how to time that. trying to open the wrist without already have timing is just going to generate off axis torque.

 

[JR]

Sorry for leaving out a key detail from my post. I meant keeping the disc as little as possible away from the chest as the disc passes the chest which primes the muscles for explosive acceleration. There every inch counts and it is easy to feel both in the plyometric loading of the muscles and the speed at which the forearm lunges forward once you begin to unbend. I shouldn't write when I'm tired. I seem to be dropping key pieces of information. Here I was meaning what to include as one of the first and highest priorities in my training regime. Sorry for the confusion.

I didn't mean the state of unbending of the elbow at the hit. Although it is good that you reiterated the priority of timing versus the purest possible mechanics wrt the position of different parts of the arm/forearm/hand.

I meant that at the exact moment that the disc has ripped from the fingers but is still a millimeter away from the fingers where are the fingers realtive to the disc?

Blake: between the disc and the target

Janne: Wow. I read the grip article again. If I didn't miss again there wasn't a textual description of the grip position. The pictures show a three o'clock gripping position. Currently I can't understand any other way to keep the fingers between the disc and the basket gripping at 12 o'clock with the elbow and wrist unbent than to set my palm on top of the slight plate of the disc. This differs from the grip it to rip it article. If I understood both texts and their implications correctly. And this way the back of the hand doesn't lead the throw. This really is an easy way to get the nose down but I can't get much wrist movement sideways for snapping. And hyzers need more from the waist than with what I understand the correct grip to be from the gripping article.

I could understand the hand between the disc and the basket part if the release happened when the fingers point 90 degree left of the basket. But I understood that this is a bad idea. Am I wrong here?

I'm thoroughly confused. Thank you very much. You succeeded if you tried to Could you please explain a grip that conforms to the rip it to grip it article and has the back of the hand in front of the disc and between the disc and the basket with the elbow and the wrist unbent while the hand points at the basket? Either I'm stupid or I'm stupid or I'm stupid or there's something lacking in the information in my head. Dunno if it is due to my head filtering out the necessary information or there's not enough data in the article. Since I'm totally haywire I don't trust myself to be able to determine the cause of my confusion. Heeeelllppppp!!!

Blake: btw, don't focus on wrist opening until AFTER you understand finish power and how to time that. trying to open the wrist without already have timing is just going to generate off axis torque.[/quote]

Janne: I thought that one shoudn't consciously try to guide wrist muscles to unbend the wrist. Because the wrist will unbend on its own at the right time. So one should never focus on the motion of the unbending? Or did you mean locking the wrist to around handshaking position?

I thought that timing is the real key to snapping and the mechanics, gripping style and the power of grip were less important though noticeable if they're way bad. Is there some other thing as well as to try to get the timing of the motions and locking the wrist to handshaking position and tightening the grip on the disc? I ask this because I'm not entirely sure what you meant in the paragraph above. I don't know what else than timing to focus on wrist opening. Of the big things in learning to snap.

Don't worry about me clutching to details. I have an idea what the mechanics are other than the grip at the rip. And timing as well. I just need to heal and throw to try things out for myself. I need to start with a broad range of motions and timing differences to see what happens. Eventually somethings should make themselves apparent by trial and error.

Not feeling too fresh now either so I better get some sleep and pray I didn't jumble up my meanings with poor writing again. Please bear with me. I think I have everything I need for loads of training sessions already. The grip is the only fuzzy part in my head that I'm aware of. Only practice and results will tell how horribly wrong my ideas are. I'm the only one that can disprove my ideas wrong so if I only could get my around to the grip at the hit I'd be satisfied in my search for knowledge of what to change and hone. And what kind of tests I need to do hunting down individual parts of timing and mechanics. And checking the results ought to be easy. If the D appears and the discs fly snap dominated even I should be able to notice it

Thanks a bunch for setting me straight on so many previous matters. All of you guys.

 

[Blake_T1]

heh.

you have over-analyzed it to the point where you are missing what actually matters.

how you hold the disc has nothing to do with a clock, because it changes a little at every point in the throw.

Sorry for leaving out a key detail from my post. I meant keeping the disc as little as possible away from the chest as the disc passes the chest which primes the muscles for explosive acceleration.

keep in mind when i number the replies that they are in reference to your previous post that also had numbers. my reply was towards you talking about elbow bend at the rip and beyond the rip.

 

[Jones1]

Instead of posting questions and questions, I think the real key to getting a more proper form is to get videos of yourself throwing. Do it at the same angles as the throwing vids on the site and compare them side by side to the featured players in the throw analysis section.

Look for key aspects that they all are doing that you are not. Start with more general things first and then as you progress, you can move to smaller details.

You will learn 100x more from doing that than any questions/answers on the forum.

If you don't have a video camera, get one. It will help you much more than you think. Also, once you get videos of yourself throwing, post them up so others can point out things that you are possibly missing.

 

[JR]

heh.

you have over-analyzed it to the point where you are missing what actually matters.

how you hold the disc has nothing to do with a clock, because it changes a little at every point in the throw.

Janne: I thought that by now it is evident that I realize that there are lots of things in motion through a time period with changing poitions and vectors as time moves. Nothing is static. I have written about that. However there is only one point in time when the last contact betwen the rip finger and the disc is broken. Here the clock analogy applies. Since this infinitely small amount of time can be pratically seen to be as frozen and the throwing parts as unmoving. And I was trying to find about that specific time only. At that single time it is not too far fetched to describe the position of the fingers relative to the nose of the disc with the clock analogy.

If the hand was still leading the disc by being between the disc and the basket just as the rip finger loses contact with the disc I only can think of the reason being that everything from the wrist to the toes is giving so much acceleration to the fingers that the gripping force is too little to hold on to the disc and the fingers accelerate harder than the disc and thus the separation occurs. This way I can see how the back of the hand could be between the target and the disc but this doesn't relate to other advice I've seen. If it really is so then I don't understand how it is possible utilizing the advice from the grip it to rip it article. And previous advice that the disc rips when the wrist and fingers have uncoiled and the fingers point straight at the basket. And the disc is infinitely close to the fingers without touching them. So I'm not asking about absolutely theoretically specific time but limes that time If you know the term.

I'm persistant in asking because I'm trying to create a list of checkpoints my throwing parts need to go through for reference when I get to practice. In practice I plan to make sure despite however many throws it takes that my mechanics are proper. Without totally sacrificing the timing training either. If timing comes free as a bonus while honing mechanics I'm glad to take the bonus I want to go the whole way the hard way realizing that the timing is what counts more. The reason for my pig headedness in this is that I'm probably doing what some or many beginners are doing and I'm trying to gather experience on how this work. Whether it is a good way or not of doing things. After completing the training I can at least say that this is why you shouldn't do things like me.

I'll try to hone each checkpoint individually until they get to muscle memory and I don't need to think about them and can nail the next part down. With the risk that I'll have to unlearn improper timing later It's my burden to carry not yours. Please don't take offense of me trying to empirically prove or disprove the merits or demerits of polishing the last few percents of technique while trying to get the other 50 % that I'm lacking right. I think that there is a chance that timing can click for me while not actually trying to go for it. Timing and mechanics are partially interdependent. And I will mess with a lot of very different combinations in order to find what works best for me. I think that it will be a long long iterative process. Full of 2 steps back and perhaps none forwards until I scrap some way of doing things. I know that I'm reinventing the wheel here. I'm just doing it for the heck of it and to give me a more solid understanding of what works and not and why to help build my theoretical and throwing skills later on.

This kind of precision in training helps in analyzing other causes of errors and in correcting them. And makes learing the next lessons a breeze since there is no need to concentrate on earlier problems. Or later actually because I'll take the advice of working back from follow through to the beginning. It truly is the end of the throw that matters much more than the beginning as long as you don't tumble in the beginning

My perspective is that throwing incorrectly for maximum distance allows me to train for different flight patterns in all sorts of curves achieved by all sorts of wacky technique flaws. Which gives me unpretty but effective ways to make weird trick shots. It's not the throw but how many that count in this game. My best part of the game are the upshots and they are needed on technical courses that we have. I wanna have better upshots still. Trust me, in the courses that I play I need all sorts of insane throws every time I play. I hope to take the long way around so that I could become a more complete thrower with a larger bag of tricks and throws. I'm doing this with the long term goals in sight. If I were short sighted I would have quit playing after two years of poor results Luckily the game is challenging and fun even with piss poor technique. I'm playing against the course and myself trying to at least reach my best previous result with almost every throw. Keeping things relatively safe. There's no point in taking triple bogeys 99 % of the time going for a deuce.

While I appreciate what many of you are saying in trying to make my learning curve less steep and speeding the process of learning once I get to throw I go my way on some of these issues. Because ease and quickness of learning are secondary for me. I want to take the hard and long way because I have higher priorities in mind as well. After all on most courses I play max golf D isn't the factor that determines the results but accuracy and control on shorter throws. And putting. And the game is fun for me even with the girly distances on drives that I get. I can take that. I have after all taken it already for two years.

Besides i don't think anyone can really tell what's gonna happen after I iron out all the problems that I know I have had but have not had the chance to practice to get rid of. Best case scenario is that the next times that I get to practice will iron out the problems and I'm snapping like a madman.

So thanks a bunch for your opinions and I do what I do regardless just to see what happens. Naturally I must recommend to others not doing what I do if their only goal is to learn snapping and getting max D -golf or absolute.

 

[JR]

Jones,

A friend of mine bought a HDTV video camera that will be used at some time when I've ironed out the kinks in my technique that I know of. At least if everything ain't peachy after unlearning previous known bad habits.

I have spent lots of hours of watching DVDs of top players. In real time, slow motion and frame by frame. To some degree of success in identifying differences. I would argue that not many of the top players are that pure with their technique as the knowledge on this site shows.

Plus I may not be technical and observant enough to pick up on everything from the videos. The devil is in the details. And snap specifically is particularly difficult to see from DVDs or throwing analysis section. Motion blurr and too low frame rates prevent effective spying

The mellowest of throws that I've seen was on 2004 worlds DVD on a short upshot by Carrie Berlogar. Don't remember the hole. I haven't looked at it yet frame by frame but basically her hand was all relaxed from the looks of it. Her wrist seemed to flap way beyond handshaking position with little or no tension anywhere. The trouble is that this is probably not that applicable for driving And technically incorrect for drives.

So all in good time. I've been itching to get videos of me with good resolution and high frame rate. Luckily the camera that's gonna be used can take a 3 second clip at 200 (half?) frames per second. That ought to help with reducing motion blurr and showing the interesting parts during snapping. Knocking on wood. It'll take some time though before the video session happens.

 

[Bruce1]

I have spent lots of hours of watching DVDs of top players. In real time, slow motion and frame by frame. To some degree of success in identifying differences. I would argue that not many of the top players are that pure with their technique as the knowledge on this site shows.

Which just goes to prove exactly what has been said in varying forms in this thread, there is no such thing as 'pure' form.
You cannot produce a recipe for a perfect throw, all you can do is say that strawberries taste nice with cream. Some people will like more cream, some will like more strawberries, some might like strawberries on their own. None of then are wrong...

The devil is in the details

No, it's not! You can take a great throw, deconstruct it, and point to all the little things that made it great, but you really really cannot take all the little details and build them into a good throw. All you can do is throw, tweak, throw, tweak, throw, tweak.... until it gets there.

 

[Blake_T1]

If the hand was still leading the disc by being between the disc and the basket just as the rip finger loses contact with the disc I only can think of the reason being that everything from the wrist to the toes is giving so much acceleration to the fingers that the gripping force is too little to hold on to the disc and the fingers accelerate harder than the disc and thus the separation occurs. This way I can see how the back of the hand could be between the target and the disc but this doesn't relate to other advice I've seen. If it really is so then I don't understand how it is possible utilizing the advice from the grip it to rip it article. And previous advice that the disc rips when the wrist and fingers have uncoiled and the fingers point straight at the basket. And the disc is infinitely close to the fingers without touching them. So I'm not asking about absolutely theoretically specific time but limes that time Smile If you know the term.

if it's a clock, the hand will be at 12'oclock at the rip if it's a neutral wrist. like 12:30 if it's open.

the grip article is to teach the fundamentals of grip. most people lack those.

the disc rips out because the hand changes direction and the inertia/momentum/force of the disc causes it to rip from the fingers.

 

[Jones1]

I think it is best to film yourself early. Before I did it first, I thought I was doing things that were right, but it ended up that I wasn't. I was shocked to see how off I really was on technique. If you have the means of watching yourself throw and you aren't using it, you are slowing down progress exponentially. I'd bet money on it.

 

[garublador1]

After throwing some yesterday I have a few thoughts that are relatively on topic that I thought I would share. Most of it has probably been said on this board somewhere, but if nothing else it helps me by putting in my own words. Feel free to correct all the stuff I got wrong.

Someone on here mentioned something about having equal movement before and after the hit in ball golf. It's easy to visualize for a golf swing because of how similar it is to a pendilum. The club is moving the fastest at the bottom of the swing when it changes from moving downward to upward. Those that can line up that point of maximum acceleration with the point that the club hits the ball will hit farther. I try to emulate that, but instead of thinking about it in terms of up and down motion vs. side to side motion, I think about it as acceleration vs. time. You want to be accelerating the fastest at the hit. For most people, if not everyone, this is the easiest to accomplish if you're actually accelerating the fastest slightly before and after the hit. The length of this time is what is being referred to as "smash factor."

To help gain the advantages of polymentric extension (snap) you'll want to get your graph of acceleration vs. time to be very steep up to the hit with a short peak. The hit happens at the peak. The graph after the peak is more shallow than the graph before the peak. This is what we call a "strong follow through" and it helps ensure we're still at our maximum acceleration at the hit. This takes a relaxed throw with great technique. Bruce Lee's "1 inch punch" would have the same type of a graph, just really short and really, really steep.

Most rec players have a graph that shoots up quickly, levels off for a relatively long time and then drops quickly. The hit happens somewhere near the end of the level part or even during the quick drop off. The higest acceleration happens way before the hit. If you don't have that timing it doesn't really matter how you've gotten your body into position to maximize snap, or how many exercises you've done to increase your potential for polymetric extension, you just won't get it.

I'm willing to bet that many of us have a graph that looks like the "right" graph, but stretched out lengthwise. The beginning is steep but it levels off for a long time before gradually going back down. If you have decent technique this would give you a good throw that doesn't harness snap and is the plateu that many of us hit.

I'm willing to bet that if you look at just about any quick, violent motion in sports you'll see a very similar graph. A volleyball spike, a tennis serve, any throw, anything where you swing something at a ball or puck or any sort of jump or hit will be the most effective with that same graph. It's all about that short time period of maximum acceleration.

 

[Bradley Walker]

I think it was called "smash factor." Those that can line up that point of maximum acceleration with the point that the club hits the ball will have a high "smash factor."

Smash factor is the ratio of clubhead speed to ball speed. It refers o how flush the ball was struck.

In disc, this would refer to how well a thrower translates THEIR speed into the DISC speed.

Pros have insane smash factors...

 

[garublador1]

I think it was called "smash factor." Those that can line up that point of maximum acceleration with the point that the club hits the ball will have a high "smash factor."

Smash factor is the ratio of clubhead speed to ball speed. It refers o how flush the ball was struck.

In disc, this would refer to how well a thrower translates THEIR speed into the DISC speed.

Pros have insane smash factors...

Thanks, I'll change that then. I wasn't really talking about transfering energy to the disc, more about timing, but I'm sure they're related. I can see how you could have perfect timing, but have a low smash factor with a bad grip.

Is there a term for what I was trying to describe, or do I get to make one up?

 

[JR]

Jones,

Normally I would agree on filming me early. in fact I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to film oneself at least once a year to check if anything's changed even though the flights seem not to have changed to be sure. If there are changes it would be a good idea to check why and if any benefits can be had from improving the changed parts even more.

I already have been humbled by your advice and know a lot that has to change. Until I get them right there's little point in filming. That's because it would be robbery to bet money on me being off in a plenty of ways in my technique. And I know how in at least some cases.

Getting the filming to happen is a hassle timingwise. My friend lives in another town and is extremely busy. I suspect that the camera was bought because he's getting married soon. And I have to heal so I quess that it'll be may at least before I get high def high speed footage. With luck I can get footage from a normal digital cameras video from another friend before that.

Once I get the basics down the videos will be tremendously helpful. No doubt about that. Can't wait but have to

 

[JR]

Awesome post garublador! That's about my take on the things so far as well. I have definitely been on the up flat and arrested development err... acceleration graph. Dunno about slowing down though. Definitely have been too long in the accelerating much too early and zero acceleration 50+ % of the way path.

My plan for the first timing practice is to try to find as late as possible a point from which to accelerate at full tilt. So the points where full speed can't be reached and arrested acceleration can be determined.

That one time that my speed seemed to increase trmendously was with an experiment to delay the onset of hardest acceleration possible with the elbow extension and concentration on chopping as quickly as possible. With promising results.

If I understood correctly the highest speed should be achieved slightly after the hit for a strong follow through. This seemingly sacrifices theoretical kinetic energy but considering that the rip can rob tremendous amounts of D if done incorrectly it's best to not loose 30 % D in trying to get 2 % or something like that more KE. I'm not sure about the steepness of acceleration up to the point of highest speed though. It's just nitpicking. I think that it would be difficult to consciously adjust the rate of acceleration accurately within such a short time period. Awesome if it could be achieved though. I quess that it would be best to try to find out which gives better D slowing acceleration after the hit or flat or rising acceleration. I think rising acceleration would be easiest to do consistently. Because this could be achieved with full acceleration started as late as possible. So the timing would be the only variable as the powering up would be constant.

 

[JR]

Thanks Blake for your patience and wisdom.

I got a little more of this puzzle then. Joy! I was nearly certain that momentum and acceleration had something to do with the separation along with abrupt change of direction of the hand. Thanks for the confirmation. Standing still naturally doesn't get these things in the play. And that's how I check the position of my fingers relative to the disc at full extension of the elbow and the wrist to handshaking position (neutral).

It would seem to me that I'm still not totally understanding everything though. I can get my gripping position to 2.30 o'clock when the wrisy is at handshaking position elbow fully unbent. I think that you meant this by wrist neutral position. When I stand still and move my hand on a line as far as I can keep my fingers at 12 o'clock position until I extend my elbow to 10 degrees short of straight and can get my wrist slightly unbent at 70 degrees to the left of the neutral. At about a couple of degrees of unbending. The side of my disc still touches my shirt though. Beside my forearm.

I thought that the sideways direction change of the hand happens from the shoulder/hip/leg turning and the elbow unbending as far as it'll go. Right?

What I'm having trouble understanding is how the disc rips from the hand at 12 o'clock if the elbow isn't unbent fully and the wrist is still mostly bent. I could understand that with forceful enough shoulder/hip/leg turn there could be enough direction change and acceleration from left to right for at least a weak grip to separate (slip?) from the disc even before full extension of the elbow and wrist. Maybe this is what happens with rip as well and I've underestimated the power of the lower parts turning?

Then the time of the separation would be earlier than I had thought. It's a matter of milliseconds to probably less than two hundreths of a second I quess. Or am I missing something?

It still is surprising to me if the elbow unbending plays so much less of a role than I had thought. If this is the case I have probably underestimated the relation of the speed of the elbow moving from left to right compared to the speed of the lower parts turning. This I'll have to test with trying to maximize the turning speed of the lower parts by shortening the last step of the x step to as short as I can manage without tripping.

Hmm. Maybe tripping isn't such a bad idea after all if it'll increase the speed of the spin. That'll get high marks on the technical difficulty scale. It's only the abrupt stopping that hurts And many think I'm tripping anyhow based on my persistance and attention to minute details. That'd be entertaining for watchers and might win tourneys if the competition craps themselves. Physically tripping I mean. My best bet for winning to get the competition somethings else to do than throw within 30 secs. Insert devious laughter of a criminal less than mastermind. Only if my broken body could take it.

My understanding was that the exact moment of the rip finger separating from the disc had the elbow fully unbent and the wrist unbent 70 degrees more than I can get with fingers staying at 12 o'clock. To handshaking neutral position. A large difference in degrees in mechanics probably not that large in reality wrt throwing and D.

Coming to think of it it's weird that with 10 degrees of unspent elbow bending and 70 of wrist the finger position changes from 12 o'clok to 3 o'clock when the wrist and elbow have unbent to neutral.

I don't think I can make myself that much more of an ass anymore so I go right ahead and take another step closer to perfection. Assuming that you aren't following the advice of the grip article what kind of grip are you using? Are you putting the disc in the seam of your hand with wrist down? I'm aware of only one grip with the kind of finger postion that you mention at 12 o'clock with full elbow and wrist extension to neutral. The grip has the palm resting on top of the disc. Are those assumptions of the unbending wrong as well?

Which grip do you prefer for max golf D? With thin rimmed drivers and with wide rimmed drivers? I'm in the same boat with small hands so your experiences are likely to be directly applicable for me.