Unapproachable approaches?

[Rastnav]

The image below is the approach to the basket on hole #22 at Valley Springs DGC in Durham, NC.

I think I have beef with the design of this hole. From the White tees the hole plays as a 315' par 4. You execute a roughly 175 foot layup to an open area and then turn about 60 degrees left to the approach pictured below.

And then it seems basically random what score you get on the hole. Depending on precisely where you land, you may have a very tight path, or you may not. If you get unlucky on the game of plinko you are about to engage in, you are going to be in the territory of "no real path to the basket".

Now, I'm a noob so my opinion is not really informed, but what really gets me about the hole is it is completely different from every single other hole on the course, which all have well defined fairways and quite spacious greens.

I got a birdie on the hole the other day, and I was briefly really stoked, until I really took stock of the fact that I was a little out of position off the drive and only got to the basket because my overhand escape attempt took a lucky kick and turned into a seeing-eye dog throwler that sniffed its way to a park job. Today I executed my tee shot perfectly and plinkoed my way to a bogey.

So, am I off base here? Does this kind of hole design make sense? My first thought is that it could be turned into a tough but fair par-3 with some judicious small tree removal, but maybe I am way off base.

 

[riltim]

Lets ignore the fact that a 315' par 4 should never exists.

Other than that I don't see anything wrong with approach to the basket from the position of the photo. I see both forehand and backhand hyzer lines.

 

[BillFleming]

As a beginner, I think that is a perfect example of a short par 4. As you said, first shot to the turn, and then depending upon your second shot, a third shot to get close and a putt, or you are close enough to attempt a putt and might need two putts. I can see it as a par 4.

I think too many people look at a hole and think, this is a Par X, so that means I have to make it in X-1. No, par is par, under par should take really good shots and shouldn't be something taken for granted.

 

[Cgkdisc]

There's nothing wrong with a white level dogleg par 4. I might have designed for 200 feet to the turn and 115' upshot for that skill level but that's a minor detail. The issue here which we can't tell from the picture is whether there may be too many trees closer to the pin to provide definable fair alternate alleys to the basket depending on your angle from the landing area. If the trees are inside the 10m circle and you hit them you probably still have a putt. If the trees are too bunched in the 30-50 ft range from the pin, then that can become less fair when hitting one probably costs a stroke. It's a tough call sometimes whether the tree stagger is a fair challenge for the skill level or fluky.

 

[elmexdela]

this looks fair to me

rhbh any putter but preferably one with some fade huge gap on right side and let it fade toward basket

 

[elmexdela]

how do ppl you play with who are better than you attack this basket

 

[Rastnav]

There's nothing wrong with a white level dogleg par 4. I might have designed for 200 feet to the turn and 115' upshot for that skill level but that's a minor detail. The issue here which we can't tell from the picture is whether there may be too many trees closer to the pin to provide definable fair alternate alleys to the basket depending on your angle from the landing area. If the trees are inside the 10m circle and you hit them you probably still have a putt. If the trees are too bunched in the 30-50 ft range from the pin, then that can become less fair when hitting one probably costs a stroke. It's a tough call sometimes whether the tree stagger is a fair challenge for the skill level or fluky.

This is basically the issue. I took the picture from the only angle where you can see the lanes to the basket. A few feet "left" or "right" and those lanes disappear. And I'm not sure that right hyzer lane isn't really a lane at all. I don't think you could actually get a disc to the chains on that line.

I may need to take more/better pictures or link somewhere that will let me post one that is higher resolution. I think there are probably 25 trees inside circle 1.

 

[Rastnav]

Here is the basket looking back at the fairway. Those first trees are 10 or 15 feet from the pin.

 

[Rastnav]

how do ppl you play with who are better than you attack this basket

I really wish I could answer that question. Frickin' covid. I started getting into DG in a big way just a few weeks before Covid hit NYC.

 

[Rastnav]

The other thing to note is that it's not really a picnic to get to the spot I took the first picture from, the available landing area straight away from the tee is about 40 feet to the right of where I took that pic. I think in order to get there I would need to through a hyzer-flip that pushed straight about 170 and then took that 60 degree turn for about 40 feet.

 

[Dingus]

If you struggle hitting small gaps like that, try cheating. Throw an overstable driver almost vertical on a hyzer angle. Think of it as a reverse roller, or a spike hyzer only 10' off the ground. By doing this you are making the disc 1/10th of the width and that much less likely to hit a tree. You probably don't even have to aim this shot very well, just throw and hope you miss the trees.

As an aside, anyone here play that hole for a 2? I have never been there, but it sure sounds like I would be trying to hit the deck hard with an Excal to skip left at the green.

 

[JuanA]

I think in order to get there I would need to through a hyzer-flip that pushed straight about 170 and then took that 60 degree turn for about 40 feet.

This is why Innova squirts plastic into the Mirage mold.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If you struggle hitting small gaps like that, try cheating. Throw an overstable driver almost vertical on a hyzer angle. Think of it as a reverse roller, or a spike hyzer only 10' off the ground. By doing this you are making the disc 1/10th of the width and that much less likely to hit a tree. You probably don't even have to aim this shot very well, just throw and hope you miss the trees.

As an aside, anyone here play that hole for a 2? I have never been there, but it sure sounds like I would be trying to hit the deck hard with an Excal to skip left at the green.

A grenade throw is even more vertical. Hold the disc vertically down from your hand with your thumb on the top of the disc, your fingers on the bottom side. Toss it with backspin like you're tossing a hula-hoop to spin back to you.

 

[Rastnav]

Alright, some good ideas to try next time I get in that position. Many thanks!

 

[araytx]

The image below is the approach to the basket on hole #22 at Valley Springs DGC in Durham, NC.

I think I have beef with the design of this hole. From the White tees the hole plays as a 315' par 4. You execute a roughly 175 foot layup to an open area and then turn about 60 degrees left to the approach pictured below.

And then it seems basically random what score you get on the hole. Depending on precisely where you land, you may have a very tight path, or you may not. If you get unlucky on the game of plinko you are about to engage in, you are going to be in the territory of "no real path to the basket".

Now, I'm a noob so my opinion is not really informed, but what really gets me about the hole is it is completely different from every single other hole on the course, which all have well defined fairways and quite spacious greens.

I got a birdie on the hole the other day, and I was briefly really stoked, until I really took stock of the fact that I was a little out of position off the drive and only got to the basket because my overhand escape attempt took a lucky kick and turned into a seeing-eye dog throwler that sniffed its way to a park job. Today I executed my tee shot perfectly and plinkoed my way to a bogey.

So, am I off base here? Does this kind of hole design make sense? My first thought is that it could be turned into a tough but fair par-3 with some judicious small tree removal, but maybe I am way off base.

Rastav,

I am going to make a statement that designers know, but many players don't like. Sometimes on short wooded holes the clearest, safest line (and the one the designer intends) is NOT the lane going to the basket, but rather the lane going 25- or 30- feet left/right/deep/short of the basket. It's a way on a short hole to FORCE you to choose -- either take an easier route and have to make a tough putt -- or if you want an easy putt you must take a very tough, sometimes "plinko" route to the basket. I've seen many holes like this and sometimes precision + great putting is required.

Now I can't tell without physically being there, but does the wider lane to the right (on the pic) go down to give you an easy lane to a 30/35-footer? If so, then it's not "plinko" like you say. I actually showed a friend this once when we were playing a hole at Am Worlds in Charlotte on 2018. From what I see it looks fair to me. Hit the open area short, then go up the left side to a 30-35' birdie attempt.

 

[R-Ogre]

Welcome to woods golf?

 

[Dingus]

Rastav,

I am going to make a statement that designers know, but many players don't like. Sometimes on short wooded holes the clearest, safest line (and the one the designer intends) is NOT the lane going to the basket, but rather the lane going 25- or 30- feet left/right/deep/short of the basket. It's a way on a short hole to FORCE you to choose -- either take an easier route and have to make a tough putt -- or if you want an easy putt you must take a very tough, sometimes "plinko" route to the basket. I've seen many holes like this and sometimes precision + great putting is required.

Now I can't tell without physically being there, but does the wider lane to the right (on the pic) go down to give you an easy lane to a 30/35-footer? If so, then it's not "plinko" like you say. I actually showed a friend this once when we were playing a hole at Am Worlds in Charlotte on 2018. From what I see it looks fair to me. Hit the open area short, then go up the left side to a 30-35' birdie attempt.

If there are designers that do this intentionally they need to stop because it is dumb. The best thrown shot should land under the basket, not 30' to the side. Move your green over 30'.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Take it a step farther and say that there should be an accessible air lane to the basket from the tee on a reachable hole for that skill level or once landing in the sweet spot(s) of the landing areas(s). The game of golf is about making challenging routes and not blocking good execution.

 

[GripEnemy]

If there are designers that do this intentionally they need to stop because it is dumb. The best thrown shot should land under the basket, not 30' to the side. Move your green over 30'.

No, because then it's yet another deuce or die hole for all am1 and pros...and boring. Araytx said it - go for the park job which is more difficult (but doable) or take the easy lane and git gud at putting. Easy is not the definition of woods (or any) golf.

 

[Rastnav]

Rastav,

I am going to make a statement that designers know, but many players don't like. Sometimes on short wooded holes the clearest, safest line (and the one the designer intends) is NOT the lane going to the basket, but rather the lane going 25- or 30- feet left/right/deep/short of the basket. It's a way on a short hole to FORCE you to choose -- either take an easier route and have to make a tough putt -- or if you want an easy putt you must take a very tough, sometimes "plinko" route to the basket. I've seen many holes like this and sometimes precision + great putting is required.

Now I can't tell without physically being there, but does the wider lane to the right (on the pic) go down to give you an easy lane to a 30/35-footer? If so, then it's not "plinko" like you say. I actually showed a friend this once when we were playing a hole at Am Worlds in Charlotte on 2018. From what I see it looks fair to me. Hit the open area short, then go up the left side to a 30-35' birdie attempt.

If that right hand lane was actually "super wide" and got you onto the green, I'd be happy enough to take it. I'm still at the stage of my game where any par is a score I should satisfied with walking away with.

I just don't think that there is a super wide right hand lane. The two lanes you think you see on the right don't go to the green. I believe the only thing available to the green is directly left or right of the blue bag.

ETA: No, I take that back, maybe you can get to the green on the first right hand gap. It's just super plinko if you don't hit it just perfect.