Unapproachable approaches?

[BillFleming]

This is a perfect example of why disc golf course design can be frustrating. You have to make each hole fair and interesting. Interesting can be easy; fair - not so much. Not all disc golfers are created equal - we are beginners, so-so, expert, etc players. A hole/course really cannot be designed for every type of player. A hole/course designed for beginners will be boring for experts. A hole/course designed for experts, will be too difficult for beginners. There needs to be a good mix of abilities when a hole/course is designed.....so maybe an expert can get birdie on a hole, a so-so player gets par, and a beginner gets bogey. That sounds like a reasonable hole....once the beginner gets better, they will be getting par, once the so-so player gets better, they will be shooting for birdies.

We have a par 3 509 foot hole on my 'home' course. I get 5s and 6s on it. Is it a poorly designed hole? No, it's just my skill level isn't up to getting par on the hole. So I practice and keep trying different things to improve...eventually, I'll get bogies on the hole....then a bit more practice/improvement and I'll be getting par. I'd love to par everything (or birdie it even), but I'll get there....until then...I'm learning and enjoying having tough/technical holes to play as they make me learn new shots.

 

[Dingus]

At the time signature below (36:25), there is two minutes of coverage of the hole.
https://youtu.be/USe-Y6fFyoQ?t=2185

As an aside, anyone here play that hole for a 2? I have never been there, but it sure sounds like I would be trying to hit the deck hard with an Excal to skip left at the green.

Well there you go. Watch the first two guys throw exactly the throw I was talking about. Either you get lucky and skip through, or hit a tree and have an easy upshot.

BTW look at the guy doing the forehand roller, how far past the tee did he run??? LOL!

 

[Steve West]

Lets ignore the fact that a 315' par 4 should never exists.
...

Not never. Disc golf is really weird.

For Gold/Open 0.8% of legit par 4 holes are 315 feet or less.

For Red/Recreational 14.5% of legit par 4 holes are 315 feet or less.

(I see the scorecard pictured shows this hole as par 3.)

 

[Rastnav]

BTW look at the guy doing the forehand roller, how far past the tee did he run??? LOL!

The LOL part is that is his second shot. His first shot hit the tree that was a foot past the end of the tee pad and finished about 2 feet from the end of the tee pad.

I've done that. With a RHBH no less.

 

[Dingus]

The LOL part is that is his second shot. His first shot hit the tree that was a foot past the end of the tee pad and finished about 2 feet from the end of the tee pad.

I've done that. With a RHBH no less.

Sorry I was talking the guy with the epic 3'+ foot fault.

 

[Rastnav]

Sorry I was talking the guy with the epic 3'+ foot fault.

If you are talking about the guy who does his runup to the side of the concrete tee pad, that isn't a foot fault. It's his second shot played from a lie about 3' in front the tee pad.

Otherwise, I'm not sure which shot you are talking about?

 

[Countchunkula]

Slightly misleading, though.They were playing that round from the rec tees, but the "Fore more" section of Valley Springs doesn't have rec tees. The Final Round is from the whites and isn't quite as deuce laden.

That makes a lot of sense. Those guys should be expected to tear up the course from red tees.

 

[Dingus]

The LOL part is that is his second shot. His first shot hit the tree that was a foot past the end of the tee pad and finished about 2 feet from the end of the tee pad.

I've done that. With a RHBH no less.

Sorry I was talking the guy with the epic 3'+ foot fault.

If you are talking about the guy who does his runup to the side of the concrete tee pad, that isn't a foot fault. It's his second shot played from a lie about 3' in front the tee pad.

Otherwise, I'm not sure which shot you are talking about?

:doh: HAHHA I thought he was a completely new guy. I'm so used to seeing pros go off the side of the teebox I assumed he was teeing off.

 

[CwAlbino]

This hole looks fine to me. I can see it being a Rec killer, but I've seen worse. If you're in that gap, depending on the ground, a forehand roller upshot is an option. Take it down the right side and let it curl left. Otherwise the gap seems wide enough for an air shot.

 

[disco40]

Honestly, the hole from what I can tell in the pictures is more than fair for a par 4. I know it seems like it's crazy now, but I'm still kind of a noob (under a year) and I would be looking to cash a three on that thing some significant % of the time (10?). Those are real gaps despite being very tight (hence the super short par 4), and the issue is just that we aren't good at throwing an accurate line, so we'll hit the trees A LOT. I feel your pain.

It would be cool if you revisit this in a year, when you're sometimes making birdie on it.

 

[Dingus]

It would be cool if you revisit this in a year, when you're sometimes making birdie on it.

The sad part is that once he is good enough to consistently get a 3, he will be good enough to understand that all disc golf holes are par 3 opcorn:

 

[disco40]

The sad part is that once he is good enough to consistently get a 3, he will be good enough to understand that all disc golf holes are par 3 opcorn:

After my round today with every pin in the "torment Disco40 and his weak arm" position, I take this comment personally! :wall:

 

[araytx]

The hole in question is definitely the outlier here. Look at all those deuces!

Honestly, the hole from what I can tell in the pictures is more than fair for a par 4. I know it seems like it's crazy now, but I'm still kind of a noob (under a year) and I would be looking to cash a three on that thing some significant % of the time (10?). Those are real gaps despite being very tight (hence the super short par 4), and the issue is just that we aren't good at throwing an accurate line, so we'll hit the trees A LOT. I feel your pain.

It would be cool if you revisit this in a year, when you're sometimes making birdie on it.

I don't think it's an outlier; IF what the OP posted originally is accurate (and I think that it is). If that hole is a par 4, like it should be & like he originally said, then we shouldn't be expecting deuces. A 3 on that hole is a birdie. The "everything is a par 3" mentality (see scorecard) is what caused the bogeys and double bogeys, because everyone's drive appeared to me to be the choice when trying to get a deuce on that hole ... when a simple layup putter or mid to the top and deep, and a straight shot down the right gap gives a three look nearly every time. When half the holes are under 200' you get a false reality of the difficulty of disc golf in the woods.

 

[Rastnav]

I don't think it's an outlier; IF what the OP posted originally is accurate (and I think that it is). If that hole is a par 4, like it should be & like he originally said, then we shouldn't be expecting deuces. A 3 on that hole is a birdie. The "everything is a par 3" mentality (see scorecard) is what caused the bogeys and double bogeys, because everyone's drive appeared to me to be the choice when trying to get a deuce on that hole ... when a simple layup putter or mid to the top and deep, and a straight shot down the right gap gives a three look nearly every time. When half the holes are under 200' you get a false reality of the difficulty of disc golf in the woods.

This hole plays different compared to every other hole on the course, though. Valley Springs is definitely woods golf, but 22 plays differently. The pro who put it in the easiest landing area threw a thumber to get to the pin. I'd still like to know why.

That said, the one par on the hole is from a missed < 15 footer. The real reason the scores on that card are so bad is that if you get a kick left on your drive, bogey is the likely score. That rough on the left is like looking at prison bars.

 

[Countchunkula]

I don't think it's an outlier; IF what the OP posted originally is accurate (and I think that it is). If that hole is a par 4, like it should be & like he originally said, then we shouldn't be expecting deuces. A 3 on that hole is a birdie. The "everything is a par 3" mentality (see scorecard) is what caused the bogeys and double bogeys, because everyone's drive appeared to me to be the choice when trying to get a deuce on that hole ... when a simple layup putter or mid to the top and deep, and a straight shot down the right gap gives a three look nearly every time. When half the holes are under 200' you get a false reality of the difficulty of disc golf in the woods.

I hear you and agree with most of what you're saying.

I still do consider that hole an outlier though. The rest of the course is clearly birdie or die, and there doesn't look to be any risk for getting aggressive (at least for players of this skill level playing the red tees). I mean there's only one score higher than 3 for the entire card on holes 1-21.

Hole 22 seems to play a bit differently. It seems to encourage players to go for the (eagle) two, but there is real risk of taking a high number. I bet these players could ace run holes 1-21 and there wouldn't be a score greater than 3. 22 presents a risk reward decision which seems to be absent from the rest of the course.

 

[Dingus]

It seems to encourage players to go for the (eagle) two, but there is real risk of taking a high number.

The "everything is a par 3" mentality (see scorecard) is what caused the bogeys and double bogeys, because everyone's drive appeared to me to be the choice when trying to get a deuce on that hole ... when a simple layup putter or mid to the top and deep, and a straight shot down the right gap gives a three look nearly every time.

While I have never played this hole and I may be completely wrong, I look at this as a shot where the conservative approach nets me a higher aggregate score. I would see myself placing that hard skip shot a high percentage of the time and either be C2 putting for 2 or making an incredibly easy upshot. If I tried to lay that up each time I am certain I would hit guardian trees from that extra 50'+ out I would be and take more 4's.

 

[disco40]

While I have never played this hole and I may be completely wrong, I look at this as a shot where the conservative approach nets me a higher aggregate score. I would see myself placing that hard skip shot a high percentage of the time and either be C2 putting for 2 or making an incredibly easy upshot. If I tried to lay that up each time I am certain I would hit guardian trees from that extra 50'+ out I would be and take more 4's.

This sort of reminds me of Andrew Fish's reflections on Iron Hill (I think the recent Gatekeeper vids?) where he laments his conservative approach to tight holes, recognizing that more aggressive play would net better scores. I believe he is correct. Though I'm not experienced enough to know.

Anyway, it's interesting. Discretion and valor are in conflict and the best players tend to favor aggression.

 

[Rastnav]

While I have never played this hole and I may be completely wrong, I look at this as a shot where the conservative approach nets me a higher aggregate score. I would see myself placing that hard skip shot a high percentage of the time and either be C2 putting for 2 or making an incredibly easy upshot. If I tried to lay that up each time I am certain I would hit guardian trees from that extra 50'+ out I would be and take more 4's.

Are you discounting the possibility of over par scores from kicking left into the rough off the skip shot? Or are you saying that you will execute that shot accurately enough of the time to offset the bogey and double you bring into play by kicking left?

Not critiquing, just wanting to understand the thinking.

 

[Dingus]

Are you discounting the possibility of over par scores from kicking left into the rough off the skip shot? Or are you saying that you will execute that shot accurately enough of the time to offset the bogey and double you bring into play by kicking left?

Not critiquing, just wanting to understand the thinking.

I think that I would get more bogey and double bogeys from playing conservatively. In my experience I can navigate 50' of thick trees pretty easily with a trick shot vs. 150' of trees with an air shot.

 

[ray1970]

Don't over complicate it. The fairway seems pretty wide open according to the sign near the parking lot. Just keep it out of the trees and you'll be fine.