USDGC results-exactly what people were worried about?

[rnance7]

And, yes the Stroke+Distance Rule was a real pain the A**...if you went OB, you were guaranteed no better than a double bogey on that particular hole. It was insanely insane and it humbled most every golfer out there. I saw a slew of 970+ rated players get eaten up by the OB. i.e. check out Phil Arthur's scorecards...He shot a 56 in qualifying and then proceeded to shoot in the 70s the first round and an 87 (+19) during the 3rd. It was brutal

 

[811rv]

I went to 2010 USDGC as a caddy/fan and 2011 trying to qfy on Monday, did not make it so I caddied for the rest of week for my friend Tony Pert.

Yes the course is really tough where disc placement is a premium. On Monday qfy I shot 91 in first round then 84 in second round with two OBs and my proj score is 83 so I got +1 and was 14th out of 40 players. The 5th place finishers got -6.

I did play practice rounds later the week and it was 95 then 85. The 85 one had three OBs. So I am playing pretty much closer to my current ratings of 917.

As a fan, I prefer the 2010 format as it was exciting duel between Nikko and Will down the wire. But yeah someone has to fork lot of prize money to attract top talents. There is lot fewer fans this year for sure and there are bit more fans following second card compare with first card because Dave F was in 2nd card. So the handicap event is geared for players themselves.

For me, I would love to try to qfy for USDGC again as I really love the course and the competition. I think the stroke and distance penalty is too much for AM players as I do see lot of players having 10 or more OBs in a round. Normal OB rules would be better.

I agree that player should play some minimum number of rounds/tournaments in order to be able to play in USDGC (should called USHDGC to respect the history of previous USDGC and it's champions.)

We would like to see more of handicap events in the future so it is great that Innova is making a move in that area.

 

[pchitti]

Not trolling or stupid. This is reality. Innova tried to push disc golf mainstream thinking the sponsorship would notice and join in. It didn't happen. Disc golf has an unsustainable model where a ridiculously high % of our resources are dedicated to tournament payouts. USDGC was the leading edge of this and simply got to expensive for Innova to cover the huge loss that operates at. Chances are the B-tier you played in last month lost money as well, but it was in the $100's instead of the tens of thousands and a Club or individual ate the loss. The only reason this is a topic of conversation at all is because so many disc golfers have never run an event and don't realize what a time/money/recourse-suckhole they are. I doubt anybody who has ever actually run a PDA-sanctioned event was very surprised by what Poole had to say. I was pretty happy that Innova finally had the guts to admit what a lot of us already knew.

This is the biggest issues with tourneys, how the hell can you mandate 100%+ payouts for sanctioning? Thats just not simply possible, especially since the Pro's HAVE no way of adding money to the tourney. Cash in cash out plus some of the tourney profits!

PDGA needs to rethink the requirements for tourneys payout structure, this isnt the YMCA league, let 75% of the field win NOTHING! Thats what every other tournament sport does.

 

[811rv]

Wanted to add one more thing, I really don't mind stroke + distance penalty as I think it is to my advantage compare with many other players. We just adjust our game plan to whatever rules we need to comply with.

 

[Script]

In the past, how was Innova expecting to see a return on their investment? I'm extremely curious how they know they are losing money. It's such a shame to see the USDGC on a path to non-existence.

My wife is legitimately upset and all she does is go watch every year. This year she said she didn't have nearly the fun as before. Even from her standpoint, the skill level was way lower and the round took forever.

Crazy thought... is there anyway Innova could sell the rights to the tourney?

 

[Three Putt]

This post is quite insightful and I think it's rather telling that it was basically ignored.

People want !@#% to get better and bigger but no one is willing to give up the pretty, shiny plastic to get there.

I think it was ignored because of the typos. Wow, I need to learn to spell.

The whole system is set up for the players to win a bunch of stuff and the host to lose their shirt. Of course the players don't see the problem, they win a bunch of stuff. It's not until you are on the other side losing your shirt that you start to understand the problem. There are people in this thread still doubting that Innova was losing money on the USDGC. Having run events, I can't see any way that they were not losing boatloads of money.

 

[barneco]

I agree completely, and the facts speak for themselves. The only difference I can see is the fact that when a TD loses his shirt, part of that shirt is going to the mfrs by way of margins on the mandated plastic payout; when a mfr hosts, that "cost" is less. Still, even if you consider that as part of the overall cost of running such a huge event, I can't see how they make anything appreciable. I suspect that this has been justified as a marketing expense so far, and only they can decide whether the cost is worth the benefit. Again, perhaps the facts simply speak for themselves, as we have a questionable new format for what has been considered a premier event.

 

[cooker]

Crazy thought... is there anyway Innova could sell the rights to the tourney?

I bet they would....but who's gonna buy it? Not me, not you, not Dave F, Nikko, or Avery....also not gonna be Nike, Coke, or McDonalds....

Those of us in the industry can't afford the old usdgc, and those outside dg don't think marketing to a couple hundred players and fans is worth the cash required for this event.

Watch the JP interview, the man tells it like it is.

 

[kerplunk]

Good to see you on here John ... I was about to lay some knowledge down on some of the peeps that "talked to your caddie" and that knew you were a 970+ rated player. A simple search of the PDGA site which shows a players complete history is easy to find.

^^^This. That is why I have stated 2 times thus far that he only had 6 rated rounds.

As far as events losing money, isn't the Am payout usually calculated by the MSRP of the plastic, thus the tourney actually profits off of each Am since the plastic is bought wholesale? In this case the extra $$ can go toward the pros. Obviously this is not the case for pro-only events like the "old" USDGC, but I don't think that most TDs or clubs "lose their shirt" by hosting a tourney. I think if you do it right you can even turn a decent profit.

 

[biscoe]

i have run dozens of pdga events and for a long time considered them successful if they cost me $200 or less to run... more recently i have tried to break even with little or no success...

after next weekend i am done running pdga events...

 

[biscoe]

generally the margin on stuff given away to ams goes to a plethora of tournament infrastructure costs...

 

[Three Putt]

^^^This. That is why I have stated 2 times thus far that he only had 6 rated rounds.

As far as events losing money, isn't the Am payout usually calculated by the MSRP of the plastic, thus the tourney actually profits off of each Am since the plastic is bought wholesale? In this case the extra $$ can go toward the pros. Obviously this is not the case for pro-only events like the "old" USDGC, but I don't think that most TDs or clubs "lose their shirt" by hosting a tourney. I think if you do it right you can even turn a decent profit.

You can if you turn your back on the Open players. If you don't squeeze your wholesale/retail differential back into the Open payout, you can make a little money. However, as the tier gets higher there is more and more expectation that you are going to add cash to the Open payout. Once the words "cash added" show up in the description, either somebody came up with a cash sponsor or you are robbing Peter to pay Paul. Most of the time it is the latter. The bigger the event, the worse it gets. If you look around online there are some Clubs that have run NT's that put meeting minutes online, and you can see the discussions where those Clubs will vote to eat the $2,000 or $3,000 the event lost. I've seen them. For those events there is a high guarantee of added cash, and they don't have enough Peters to rob.

There is also no guideline on calculating the AM payout, and some places actually calculate the payout on what they actually paid instead of retail. Since sanctioned events are seen as a big disc golf party in many places, the whole idea of making any money off them just isn't part of the equation.

However, you can make a little money off them. It's peanuts compared to the time. If you really figure in your time and overhead, I don't think you can make money. The most common way to make money is to have a lot of good merch and make a lot of money from those sales. Then the tournament is just a loss leader to get people in to buy your merch. The actual tournament is still losing money, though.

 

[Three Putt]

i have run dozens of pdga events and for a long time considered them successful if they cost me $200 or less to run... more recently i have tried to break even with little or no success...

after next weekend i am done running pdga events...

Keeping my out of pocket under $200 was always my goal. I never got anywhere close to breaking even.

 

[DavidSauls]

Crazy thought... is there anyway Innova could sell the rights to the tourney?

The crazy thought would be anyone buying the rights.

Innova doesn't own the date. I doubt they have an exclusive contract with Winthrop to use the course. They might have a lock on the name.

Without buying any rights, anyone can start a similar tournament and duplicate everything Innova's done. Except, perhaps, use Winthrop's course. (My personal hope is that Vibram's Players Cup match-play event will supplant the USDGC as a "prestige" event. The TPC is also trying).

Even the name isn't that big a deal. Apparently available are:

American Disc Golf Championship
USA Disc Golf Championship
National Disc Golf Championship

And probably dozens more, for those more creative than I.

 

[oddjob]

Why not just set your money on fire?

 

[esdubya]

I always figured that the USDGC funded the large payout mainly based on the sale of the champ Rocs and the associated support packages. From 2004-2006ish there was a feeding frenzy online when they went on sale, but lately that isn't the case from what I can see. Less demand for champ Roc = smaller USDGC?? Or was that just a minor factor?

 

[biscoe]

i have always calculated am payout at roughly halfway between wholesale and retail...

 

[Script]

The crazy thought would be anyone buying the rights.

Innova doesn't own the date. I doubt they have an exclusive contract with Winthrop to use the course. They might have a lock on the name.

Without buying any rights, anyone can start a similar tournament and duplicate everything Innova's done. Except, perhaps, use Winthrop's course. (My personal hope is that Vibram's Players Cup match-play event will supplant the USDGC as a "prestige" event. The TPC is also trying).

Even the name isn't that big a deal. Apparently available are:

American Disc Golf Championship
USA Disc Golf Championship
National Disc Golf Championship

And probably dozens more, for those more creative than I.

That would be good to see someone step up and do that. The opportunity is definetely there.

 

[jmhoekst]

That would be good to see someone step up and do that. The opportunity is definetely there.

Everybody on DGCR throws in $50 to make the DGCR Open next year! opcorn:

 

[barneco]

Everybody on DGCR throws in $50 to make the DGCR Open next year! opcorn:

I'm down...as long as I get my $50 back in plastic if I score in the top %50 of the field!

:doh: