What about a new pro division?

[mbressler13]

You may be joking, but this is honestly a problem. As an 839 rated player, why am I being called a Sandbagger for winning a Rec tournament (my first win, BTW?)

Moreover: why am I bowing to peer pressure and moving up to MA2 and MA1? Because I don't want to seem like an *******.

I could go round and round with this, but all in all: no, we don't need more divisions.

I'm 850 rated and won 2 outta 3 rec tournaments i played in last year. Felt like it was time to move up because there was no competition. That was my choice though.

 

[1978]

It's the lower-rated players playing up that makes those playing in their ratings-appropriate division look like sandbaggers. Hence a sandbagger "problem".

Duh.

Why didnt the thread end here.

The myth of the sand bagger is created by the few who rely on eliminating those that beat them, rather than playing better. And remember, Advanced is actually Open amateur, the division for everyone that does not want to be pro. It is stupid to force someone to become a professional if they do not want to be one... like me. If I never won a disc or got a players pack again, I would still be wholly against being a professional until pro purses are funded by sponsorship.

 

[1978]

Here in LA, we have the opposite problem. Our Open division pool is fairly deep, including some 'Super Pros'. Because of that alot of Adv guys don't want to move up and just give their money to Rico, Rathwaite, Mcbeth or the several others who are here. This also creates clogging in the lower divisions. You need to shoot about 970 rated to win Int around here.

That may be but the players in intermediate are still all 934 rated or under. Im not sure how your point makes any sense, 934 rated players SHOULDNT be playing pro and I doubt that any level of pro play would clog up intermediate...they have to know they shouldnt be competing at that level anyway...now the advanced players, I can see how that could put more skill in to the Open Amateur division.

 

[1978]

Maple Hill Open Ams is a C-Tier with just two divisions: men and women. It didn't completely fill this year, but it has in the two years prior.

United States Amateur Disc Golf Championships. 1 Division 1 Winner

 

[1978]

This scenario is all about creating a more competitive junior disc golf universe. The more we appreciate juniors, the more we will expand. They should not be a sideshow to the Advanced World Championships.

Sorry Matt, disagree. Combining everyone in to 1 division does absolutly nothing. The same 10 players will be at the top regardless. It does not make it more competitive...in fact it becomes less competitive unless you make it purely a qualify to get in event. If you dont, you will have so many people signing up youll dilute the event between the 890's that signed up and the 1050'. The existance of an Am Worlds has nothing to do with the growth of disc golf. The best players in the world already play Open. What affects the growth of the sport are 2 things, perception of the players conduct, and quantity/upkeep of courses.

 

[sprintermatt]

In other words, do away with the biggest cash cow event that a local club could possibly put on provided that they have the resources to man it.

Cash cow, debt creator or local club destroyer... Worlds has been all three. If there's gambling in disc golf, running worlds is the Baccarat...

I hate to break this to you, but most Junior players get to Worlds because their adult parent(s) who are also playing provide the money and transportation to get them there. Take away that adult's right to play and junior might have to stay home too and settle for some regional B-tiers instead.

Imagine if parents didn't have the kids tag along and instead caddied for their kids. Scott and Evan Smith are at Worlds right now, and Scott could probably be playing (if he hadn't taken cash after moving up pretty early in his Masters career), but instead he's caddying and bonding with his son, who got a WORLDS ACE TODAY! Would he have witnessed that if he was tied for 45th place in Adv Masters? No. Focus on the youth, and you focus on the future. Advanced worlds is huge because we allowed it to happen. I'm not saying we don't need all the amateur divisions, just not at Worlds. To truly grow the sport, parents should want to support their aspiring young stars. It may take some time to cultivate the mentality, but I don't see am/jr. worlds changing it.

It takes away people who are at the heart of Am Worlds and makes the whole thing possible. How much merch do you think gets sold at an Am Worlds flymart? Now try to imagine 75 percent of the customer base not there.

Flymart is a pre-internet creation. the internet is a much more efficient way to sell stuff, and you are taking a gamble at Flymarts, some are great (Des Moines 2004), some not so much.

No, the spectators will largely be relatives of the players, other players who aren't playing at the moment, mixed in with perhaps a few curious locals. People simply don't travel far to be spectators for a sport when they could expend far less money to actually play it somewhere else.

The obvious focus of spectators for Worlds are the locals. I do not see a time in the near future that people will travel from more than 3-4 hours to go watch disc golf. How far will you travel for a sporting event you are attending? Maybe one day we'll have lined fairways with international spectators, but I don't see that happening soon. Scandinavia gets quite a lot of spectators, not all are disc golfers. It can happen. Guess what their tournaments usually consist of? Junior and Pro divisions.

 

[sprintermatt]

Worlds becomes not about who registers fastest, but who is invited. You can't open a single division to every player in existence. That's a good thing, it means we are growing.

As for juniors, I would hope that one day we can have such a huge pool that we also have to resort to a ratings based or similar entry for them too... I mean we have that now, but with larger than 8 person fields... I would love to see 30-40 players in the 10 and under categories. Who wouldn't?

 

[bradharris]

parents should want to support their aspiring young stars.

Parents can be supportive without needing to shell out thousands of dollars in travel costs and a week or more of their time so that they can compete for a title that no one even cares about.

 

[jchoate7]

I've had an idea for a few years, but I haven't brought it up before. However, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense. (At least here locally.) And keep in mind, this is just for Men's, not masters, grandmasters, women, etc...

First, change the rating guidelines and do away with the whole Adv, Int, Rec definitions.

MPO: 975+
MA1: 950-974
MA2: 925-949
MA3: 900-924
MA4: Anything 899 and under

The smaller, 25 point gaps I feel would help level the playing field and group those closer in skill levels. But here's the catch. With what your rating is, you HAVE to play in that division. Sometimes I think that allowing people to play in a division that they don't belong in is problematic. I compare it to baseball. In order to get to the majors, you have to be at a certain skill level, hence the rating of at least 975 to play MPO. In baseball, if a player can't hack it in AAA, they get sent down to AA. This would essentially make people work for it more. If you wanna play in MA1 but you're rating is 930, well then hit the practice field. Granted, in order to imagine a system such as this, you would have to view it as if you had no previous knowledge of how the system is set up currently.

Ok now interwebbers, feel free to shoot my idea full of holes and crush my hopes and dreams!!

I really like this idea minus the fact that you need to be over 975 to play open. I think that the forcing people to play what they are rated is great in the amateur divisions. As for the open division I think that anyone should be able to play still. It will keep the top pros happy and the lower rated players that want to play open happy as well. Forcing players to play where they rated in the amateur divisions will prevent people from screaming "sandbagger" every time someone wins a division.

 

[scarpfish]

Cash cow, debt creator or local club destroyer... Worlds has been all three.

Much of the negative has surrounded Pro Worlds, not Am Worlds.

Imagine if parents didn't have the kids tag along and instead caddied for their kids. Scott and Evan Smith are at Worlds right now, and Scott could probably be playing (if he hadn't taken cash after moving up pretty early in his Masters career), but instead he's caddying and bonding with his son, who got a WORLDS ACE TODAY! Would he have witnessed that if he was tied for 45th place in Adv Masters? No. Focus on the youth, and you focus on the future.

News flash, not everyone has kids, and not everyone who does has a kid has one who is ready or willing to take up competitive disc golf. Your "solution" takes away an event from people who are willing to pay for it and makes it a less lucrative proposition for any club who wishes to put it on. See how many bids we get for Worlds then. There's nothing stopping parents who wish to mentor rather than play from doing that now. I in fact got to play on a tournament card Saturday with a junior who's father caddied for him and offed to keep score for the whole card. Any bonding he could have done at a Junior Worlds with the kid was just as easily accomplished at an unsanctioned tournament in his hometown.

Advanced worlds is huge because we allowed it to happen. I'm not saying we don't need all the amateur divisions, just not at Worlds.

If we allow something successful to happen, I see no reason to screw with the plumbing unless something is wrong. To me, the issue of Worlds filling up with lesser qualified players before better qualified players can get in needs addressing.

To truly grow the sport, parents should want to support their aspiring young stars. It may take some time to cultivate the mentality, but I don't see am/jr. worlds changing it.

What we need to fulfill that are more juniors only tournaments, where kids and their parents who wish to mentor rather than play, can compete in an environment that isn't contaminated with the shenanigans often on display at most current events. Taking Am Worlds away from adults does none of that.

Scandinavia gets quite a lot of spectators, not all are disc golfers. It can happen. Guess what their tournaments usually consist of? Junior and Pro divisions.

When you take the ability of most people to participate away, its only logical they'd want to do the next best thing. Thing is, here in the U.S., we don't have the resource scarcity, ridiculous taxation and regulation (yet) or elitism mindset that seems to be de rigueur in much of Europe. Stuff here is cheap and plentiful. Cheap and plentiful is why we're putting a new course in the ground at the rate of almost one per day.

 

[sprintermatt]

It's ok, you are clouded by the current state of things.

 

[AndyJB]

Change is healthy, and to effect (affect?) Change you have to buck the status quo.

But you also have to have a lot of people who want change. And I'm not seeing that here on the forums and certainly not in the real world.

 

[Dan Ensor]

You effect change.

Change affects you.

 

[AndyJB]

In Soviet Russia, change effects you!

 

[Royal Hill]

The trophy table based argument:

For small pond regional events - 5 divisions to three places seems the best fit for a trophy table. (considering a "full field" or so 65-90 players... single course)

'cause thats fifteen trophies. That fills a table. Any more than that looks overflowingly ridiculous. Less is ok. Fifteen is a reasonable ask for fabrication if you are making them.

Weak argument based on appearances! But hey... its a practical argument.

And I'll share this - our regions run a very successful series of events - full fields+, high demand and most fill early and only two of six even have trophys. No payout, low entry, low value player gift. The other four only nominally reward (small value gift card) the "hot round". That's it! The rest - get fun. And player satisfaction is high. It's been fantastic and refreshing.

 

[DavidSauls]

And I'll share this - our regions run a very successful series of events - full fields+, high demand and most fill early and only two of six even have trophys. No payout, low entry, low value player gift. The other four only nominally reward (small value gift card) the "hot round". That's it! The rest - get fun. And player satisfaction is high. It's been fantastic and refreshing.

There's an idea I'd like to see catch fire.

 

[1978]

Every region is different. We have over 100 courses in 50 miles. There is a lot of competition with leagues from other leagues and just the ability to play where ever you want. In some areas courses are either limited in selection (so more people play a single course) OR an event at an overcrowded course allows players to play relaxed in ways that they can't normally. What works in your area wont in others so I think this is a tough debate to satisfy nationally. Also, internet peoples dont speak for the general population. Events with payouts get great numbers and most people arent complaining about them like you see online.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm not complaining about payouts. I just hope the low-entry, low-payout model gains in popularity. With luck, these models can co-exist, giving disc golfers more choices.

I know of at least a few that have been successful in the Carolinas. Some were charity events, which might skew the figures if disc golfers are willing to do for charity what they wouldn't do others. Some haven't been; High Country at Ashe County comes to mind as a quick-filling, trophy-only event.

 

[sprintermatt]

Events with payouts get great numbers and most people arent complaining about them like you see online.

says the guy with 150+ discs for sale...

 

[1978]

says the guy with 150+ discs for sale...

The problem with the internet. People say things silly like that. You know me personally and know that I play almost all Pro events and turn down cash. That gives money back into the TD or local clubs pocket. Yet even though you know that, you'll still make a statement that implies what? That because I have some discs for sale I am not qualified to say that other players dont have problems with events that pay out?

Even though you know better you take all other explainations out of the equation. Last post on those threads is from 10-11-2012. That thread is 2 years old, there isnt a disc on there aquired in the last 2 years, I could be selling for other people, I could have purchased a bunch of those discs. There are plenty of terrible disc golfers out there with collections of discs in the thousands...that probably arent winning them in tournaments.