Where does all the am money go in tournments

[JC17393]

on a Pro tour there will be no AMs playing to make profit from, and the TD will be paid solely from sponsorship money- sponsors who will gladly pay because this person will provide them a great venue to advertise their product.

the future tour isn't built around retailers who make money through disc sales, its built on spectators. Could you fill me in on how pocketing money from retail-wholesale price difference will lead to huge tournaments with lots of spectators?

As I said before I see nothing wrong with good TDs making a profit but I think your argument sucks. You talk of TDs rolling back their profit into bigger events, yet disc golf tournaments as a whole have been stagnant for 20 years. Yes, there are a ton more courses, tournaments and players now, but payouts(relative to entry fees) and sponsor money from outside disc golf haven't gone up much with the exception of very few tournaments. What we have clearly isn't growing huge tournaments that attract the outside sponsorship we all want.

You don't think that stagnation isn't at least in part due to the prevailing attitude that profit is bad? Or that even if "some profit" is okay, there's an attitude that it shouldn't be rolled into pro payout or future events (the "my money should stay in my division" attitude)?

Going back to the Spartan Race example. It started out as a true amateur venture and largely remains that way. But because of the growth in popularity and attendance, sponsorship has increased to the point where they now offer a pro tour of sorts. A select number of their events offer cash prizes to the top finishers ($7500 purse at each event) in their "Elite" division...100% of which is sponsor cash. There's also a year-long points series with awards as well. They've only reached that point in the last couple years.

That is how we build a true pro tour...the professionally run amateur tournaments create more players, more visibility, and more cash flow to lead to self-sponsored events, at least to start. We've done everything backwards in this sport from the beginning...there were pros before there were ams, and we've been trying to build a pro tour without ever having a large enough foundation of am and recreational players to support it. Support has to come from within first, before the big money outside sponsors show up.

Unfortunately we seem to be past the point of no return on amateurs being largely satisfied and happy to pay as much for the experience of the event as they are for the tangible goodies they get in return. So we'll continue to chase our own tails and "stagnate" for another 20 years.

 

[LukeButch]

The lack of spectators and sponsors is on the pro side and has little to nothing to do with the AM side

If the "pros" were providing a spectacle that the public wanted to watch, then the sponsors would bring money into the sport. As far as I can see, the pros have not attracted either spectators or sponsors to any significant degree.

I know lots of DGrs think watching top talent play the game is absolutely amazing, but, to the general public, its still pretty lame, confusing and boring to watch.

I don't actually see DG ever breaking out as a mainstream, highly sponsored sport. I find the notion of "professional disc golfer" somewhat laughable.

I think that there is potential for us to be mainstream-ish but we are a LONG ways away from that. and it will only come after disc golf becomes a regular activity in public schools nationwide. when the general public has at least played the game before(even if they aren't regular players) we will have a much larger potential audience of spectators

What did the top pro make in actual profit last year? What did they net once traveling expenses were factored in? This is not a sport where you are going to make enough to live on, much less retire a millionaire after a 10-20 year career.

he made quite a bit more than his PDGA winnings, I can tell you that much

How do you know that no one is making money from it?

I used to live in Las Vegas, and i know the TD

disc sales at the event may generate profits for the club, all of which are put back into the sport(new baskets, teepads, etc). no one is pocketing any money, which is pretty normal for club-run events I think? No one is making any money, yet the core group wants to continue to make their event bigger and better, not just for local club players but for anyone who wants to play it.

 

[WhiteyBear]

player X signs up for advanced at a 2 day C tier for $50

PDGA fees: $2
other fees, basic expenses like ob markers, flyers, etc: $5

$43 left: lets say TD chooses a Z plastic disc for payout- cost $6 wholesale, deducts $13 from that 43 for it. 30 left, pays out 2 discs that cost him half that.

payout:100%, TD profit: $22.

this meets PDGA standards, and is 100% payout

I'm taking it that you've never actually TD'd before. And never had to front $1,500 in cash before even the first drop of entry fees fell into your lap. And you've never had to "hope" that 35+ showed up so that you can actually break even.

I've seen, and have experienced first hand, getting the short end of the stick. Fortunately, my local club stands behind my events now, and helps front the costs. Those first two years were scary though (especially when I had to front the money a month before my wedding).

How about this, pay hundreds of dollars for a catered lunch, and HALF the expected size of the field shows up. Guess who eats that lunch? The TD.

Good luck trying to get every division to pay $50 for a C-Tier event.

If you don't like the TD, stop supporting their events, and more than likely they are not affiliated with a club. Start your own club, and make your own rules. Until then, it is perfectly fine for a TD to get "paid".

Again, if you complain about the TD being paid (but the event was fun), do you complain when DD runs an event?

 

[scarpfish]

I know lots of DGrs think watching top talent play the game is absolutely amazing, but, to the general public, its still pretty lame, confusing and boring to watch.

I know lots of DGrs who think watching our top talent is boring. We didn't get into this game for the purpose of idol worship. Shoot, most of the guys I play with would rather be more enamored with the stars of their favorite established spectator sport than they would our "stars".

The sad fact is, the amateur player base is generally where any fledgling sport's spectator base is eventually derived from. If we can't convince our own to watch, we're going to have a much more difficult time getting the uninitiated to do so.

 

[Harrishabitat]

How do you know that no one is making money from it?

Because he knows it all...can't you tell from his inane posts?

 

[Thumber]

I tend to agree Scarpfish.

I wouldn't pay a cent to just go watch an event, and I live this game

 

[Harrishabitat]

I tend to agree Scarpfish.

I wouldn't pay a cent to just go watch an event, and I live this game

Sorry... I guess I'm just frustrated with this whole "everything is disc golf should be free but I still should get a crap ton of stuff for nothing" mentality. I withdraw my sarcastic attack against him and I apologize sincerely.

Maybe it's because I have ran events and I have owned multiple businesses...but you can't grow with out a couple basic factors.

You have to have customer service: While there are great ambassadors of the sport out there this sport will never grow...let me repeat... NEVER grow until its public appearance changes. Yes drugs and counterculture is gaining momentum in america today, but the average middle class parents wouldn't want their kids participating in disc golf if they went out to most courses on an average day. People yell at people if they pick up their discs, the get drunk out on the courses and yell and fight and their is a general "if your not us, then we don't want you here...once again this is not everyone, but the negatives will always be noticed. On top of that club dramas, alienating people and rough edge is going to keep mainstream america away...and that's where the money is folks.

You have to be interesting: He is the hardest thing... This sport is amazing. Most anyone can play anytime for almost no money and once someone throws a disc at some chains they are hooked... but that's not what people know about disc golf. Our image is still of hippie golfers high and drunk...and that isn't helped with TD's that have beer on tap at events at 10am.

You have to have incentive: Sorry to break the news to the hippie world, but the world doesn't revolve around love and peace...it revolved around incentive...and that's not a bad thing. There are 10 million things in this world that I can spend my time and money on...what makes disc golf worth that time? Tournaments are fun, but there is so much damn drama at a lot of them that it drives some people away. Lots of TD's come and go because there isn't incentive for them to put up with the BS and complaining. People wanting waaaaaay more then what they are paying for. And big businesses wont participate because it's not a proven business model and frankly corporate money avoids drama.

I know that was a drone on and I apologize for that as well... I am just so damn frustrated with the cheep ass mentality of disc golfers. Look Im not rich...far from it... but I understand that I have to pay for a quality experience. But if a TD trying to charge lets say $80 for a weekend event, people bug the hell out... but those same people will cheerfully drop a hundred bucks on beer and pot...

Mentality needs to change people!!!

 

[Thumber]

Yes drugs and counterculture is gaining momentum in america today, but the average middle class parents wouldn't want their kids participating in disc golf if they went out to most courses on an average day. People yell at people if they pick up their discs, the get drunk out on the courses and yell and fight and their is a general "if your not us, then we don't want you here...once again this is not everyone, but the negatives will always be noticed. On top of that club dramas, alienating people and rough edge is going to keep mainstream america away...and that's where the money is folks.

I'm not sure this is actually the main issue. Look at Basketball. There are plenty of courts around the country where drugs and hard edge personalities are in the mix. Yet it remains mainstream popular. Why is that?

I think its because the sport is easy to understand and observe.

DG is played over these huge swathes of land where it is difficult to understand who might be winning at any given moment.

 

[1978]

:gross:

 

[Harrishabitat]

I'm not sure this is actually the main issue. Look at Basketball. There are plenty of courts around the country where drugs and hard edge personalities are in the mix. Yet it remains mainstream popular. Why is that?

I think its because the sport is easy to understand and observe.

DG is played over these huge swathes of land where it is difficult to understand who might be winning at any given moment.

very very good point and yes there are courts in parts of the country where I wouldn't even go without an armed escort, but a majority of courts are in suburban communities, backyards and schools... schools is the kickers.

But you are so right, most people don't understand what the heck we are doing when we are playing and the PDGA has done ZERO in my opinion for public awareness campaigns.

 

[1978]

I'm not sure this is actually the main issue. Look at Basketball. There are plenty of courts around the country where drugs and hard edge personalities are in the mix. Yet it remains mainstream popular. Why is that?

I think its because the sport is easy to understand and observe.

DG is played over these huge swathes of land where it is difficult to understand who might be winning at any given moment.

I dont agree with the first part of this. The areas of "hard edge and drugs" are typically understood to be that way, not necessarily the people playing. I've played ball in really terriible areas you dont typically see blatant drug use or alcohol abuse on the court. Similarily, if a disc golf course is in a bad neighborhood full of those same people you are a little cautious when playing, the area is known for the bad. In disc golf the average male player 18-40 is stereo typed as a drug smoking hippy. This is because of the actions of many disc golfers. This stereotype is painted across all areas of disc golf or course locations. In a local gated community I dont expect 40's and smoking or hard edge people to be playing...I would expect that element of high disc golfers to be there though.

The drug and alcohol culture proliferates this sport, and it is evident in the trashcans and by just following around any number of our top pros for a few minutes. Many don't even hide it. When you think basketball player you dont think drug and hard edge...maybe if you said basketball player in Harlem, maybe. Everyone in the PDGA knows who does these things...many of them do it too so it is very hard to self police. Its one small thing keeping the sport down in the public eye. More importantly the biggest thing is Pro's cashing from local tournaments then fleeing to other parts of the county spending that money in non disc golf related ways. The current system takes money from locals who would spend it improving the local disc golf scene and redistributes it to things like food and gas in between those tournaments. The sport will never grow with out outside funding. We wont get outside funding if our "Pros" have the image they have.

 

[Royal Hill]

We are almost there...

One more push to get the thread to drift to tv coverage.. And we'll be the same ol' thread touching on all the major topics. (since the main talking points seem to be repeatedly the same)

That being said, unless you are the higher levels of sport influence I advise best ground efforts are spent cleaning up your local dg image, run great quality, service driven events and make your local culture represent where you'd like the world to follow.

And maybe others will.

 

[youdidwell]

it is evident in the trashcans

Like every park with or without a disc golf course has trashcans full of beer cans. Softball, Bowling, etc. all have a drinking mentality, it's mainstream. Extreme sports all have pothead stigmas as well, its just way more exciting to watch.

Disc Golf is doing fine which evident by its continued growth and number of new companies. Tournaments are fun but this is a recreational sport. It's not a highly competitive sport and it never will or should be. Deal with it, its the nature of the game. That's why people like to show up, have fun, and get a disc. Makes for a great day.

I don't care if the TD makes money or not, gives it to the pros, whatever. cause I'm not going to put in the effort to run one so he's more than welcome to do whatever he wants. As long as I know what I am getting or not getting upfront, and the tourney goes well. It is fine with me.

Too many people just like to complain, I don't think its isolated to disc golf.

 

[Hampstead]

I'm not a big fan of deep payouts but am less of a fan of weak payouts. Say you are playing pro Masters, entry is $50, 4 guys enter, 2 tie for first and have a playoff. Winner gets $65 loser gets a handshake. I don't expect 50% payout, but that's pretty lame.

 

[sidewinder22]

The drug and alcohol culture proliferates this sport, and it is evident in the trashcans and by just following around any number of our top pros for a few minutes. Many don't even hide it. When you think basketball player you dont think drug and hard edge...maybe if you said basketball player in Harlem, maybe.

Every sport has issues and many are more serious. Ever seen "Basketball Diaries"? What about all those NFL and NBA players that get arrested for beating their women, skipping child support, DUI? I know some pro triathletes that are alcoholics and put alcohol in their water bottle.

Can you imagine what moms think about their kids riding a bicycle? That sport is an infestation of blood doping.

 

[JC17393]

I'm not a big fan of deep payouts but am less of a fan of weak payouts. Say you are playing pro Masters, entry is $50, 4 guys enter, 2 tie for first and have a playoff. Winner gets $65 loser gets a handshake. I don't expect 50% payout, but that's pretty lame.

On the surface, there's something definitely fishy about that if it's a standard sanctioned tournament. If there's a charity aspect to the event, or other value given outside the payout (lunch, players' pack, etc), maybe it's justifiable. If not, the TD might have some explaining to do.

 

[LukeButch]

I'm taking it that you've never actually TD'd before. And never had to front $1,500 in cash before even the first drop of entry fees fell into your lap. And you've never had to "hope" that 35+ showed up so that you can actually break even.

actually I've ran many tournaments, from small 20 player charity events to 100+ player B tier with $2500 added. Always fronted money myself when I wanted discs or shirts and stuff.

i can remember feeling that hope...but whats the worst case scenario? I get stuck with a bunch of discs I paid $7 for that retail for $15+? pretty easy to get rid of for a cheap price and still make a small profit.


also you need to work on your reading comprehension. I've said in a bunch of posts that I want good TDs to be rewarded but all you and a few others seem to read is " TDs should never make any money"

 

[HiFi]

Good god Jeverett answered the thread on the first page how is this almost 30 pages long

 

[Dana]

Haven't read this thread, but I've never taken money from Am's to feed the Pros.
(TD'd A,B, C and unsanctioned tournaments.)

Sorry you've played event(s) where you haven't got a fair payout.

 

[WhiteyBear]

actually I've ran many tournaments, from small 20 player charity events to 100+ player B tier with $2500 added. Always fronted money myself when I wanted discs or shirts and stuff.

i can remember feeling that hope...but whats the worst case scenario? I get stuck with a bunch of discs I paid $7 for that retail for $15+? pretty easy to get rid of for a cheap price and still make a small profit.


also you need to work on your reading comprehension. I've said in a bunch of posts that I want good TDs to be rewarded but all you and a few others seem to read is " TDs should never make any money"

Worst case scenario was...our honeymoon went from steak and cigars to pure rice and beans lol.

Takes time to sell discs, time I don't have and I don't have an active "outlet" to do so. I only run a couple of events a year. Too busy with other things :/

And yes, I am horrible with reading comprehension, but I also didn't read 98% of the other posts