Where does all the am money go in tournments

[DannyM]

I, for one have volunteered a good bit of my time and labor for courses around my area, because I take pride in our local courses. My home course has 2 tournaments each year, and I get there early to help with registration, and stay late to make sure everything is ready to go for the next morning (it's a 2 day event). I don't want anything in return except an occasional "thanks" from other players, especially those out of town. I've played in many tournaments throughout the years, and I've seen some really well run, and some that were not. When people come into "my house", I want them leaving thinking it was well run, and if it just takes a little extra time put in to do it, it's worth it!

 

[JC17393]

I get the impression that quite a few disc golfers seem to be on the the look out for an awful lot of boogey men in the tournament scene. And I say boogey men because I think the dastardly TD twirling his moustache while gleefully counting money taken from players for little to no return is so rare as to be practically nonexistent.

 

[LukeButch]

So why is it ok for you to be compensated for your time but a TD should not be?

:wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

My whole argument was that bad TDs, and/or those who really take advantage of the system don't deserve to make a profit. Not that all TDs dont. I believe that if someone hosts a good tournament and is honest about their profit margin players will still play and be ok with it.


parts of your argument are that if TDs cant make any money, what incentive is there for them to run tournaments. Why is it tough to understand that like DannyM there are people out there who want to give back and have a good tournament in their area- and the way to have one is for them to organize it. Or are these TDs who do something for nothing just idiots for not making money when they could be?

 

[Harrishabitat]

:wall::wall::wall::wall::wall:

My whole argument was that bad TDs, and/or those who really take advantage of the system don't deserve to make a profit. Not that all TDs dont. I believe that if someone hosts a good tournament and is honest about their profit margin players will still play and be ok with it.


parts of your argument are that if TDs cant make any money, what incentive is there for them to run tournaments. Why is it tough to understand that like DannyM there are people out there who want to give back and have a good tournament in their area- and the way to have one is for them to organize it. Or are these TDs who do something for nothing just idiots for not making money when they could be?

And I will throw it right back to you... Who are you to be the judge if a TDbis bad and is worthy of getting paid? The free market system will take care of that. If its a good event people will come ... If its not they won't...simple as that. What the hell does profit margins have anything to do with it? If I put on the most amazing event ever and you as a player have a great time over the weekend... Why does it matter if I make $1.00 or $10,000?

 

[DavidSauls]

My whole argument was that bad TDs, and/or those who really take advantage of the system don't deserve to make a profit.

Would you mind substantiating what TD (1) pays what's promised in his flyer or publicity, (2) meets the sanctioning guidelines players should expect, (3) pays back the Ams most or all of their entry fees, in the value of players packs and prizes, in addition to providing a tournament which they enjoy, and still considered to be taking advantage of them (or the system)?

Any examples?

 

[WhiteyBear]

You guys, who argue against TDs being paid, are way too naive.

DD ever ran an event in your neighborhood?

/endthread

 

[Harrishabitat]

You guys, who argue against TDs being paid, are way too naive.

DD ever ran an event in your neighborhood?

/endthread

was that akin to taking you ball and going home? LOL. It didn't even make sense my friend. Are you arguing that they should be paid or not be paid?

I would think if you are going to inject out of nowhere and declare the end of the thread you should at least make a coherent comment

 

[WhiteyBear]

was that akin to taking you ball and going home? LOL. It didn't even make sense my friend. Are you arguing that they should be paid or not be paid?

I would think if you are going to inject out of nowhere and declare the end of the thread you should at least make a coherent comment

It means they td hundreds of events each year. And they get paid for each one. Players love their events.

People who don't think tds should be paid are completely naive to what it takes to run an event. Not a mini, but an event.

You have no problem paying DD, so have no problem paying a "regular" guy if he provides a quality venue as well.

 

[Harrishabitat]

It means they td hundreds of events each year. And they get paid for each one. Players love their events.

People who don't think tds should be paid are completely naive to what it takes to run an event. Not a mini, but an event.

You have no problem paying DD, so have no problem paying a "regular" guy if he provides a quality venue as well.

Ok I was worried you were trying to say they didn't get paid LOL ... and just for the record they dont run "hundreds" of events a year but they do their fair share of them

 

[WhiteyBear]

Ok I was worried you were trying to say they didn't get paid LOL ... and just for the record they dont run "hundreds" of events a year but they do their fair share of them

You're only including sanctioned events?



If i had to guess, I'd say about 200-300 separate events a year's. They have multiple rvs, plus their local minis, and smaller events prior to the larger ones.

 

[Jay Dub]

^^ I think one of you is referring to one TD and the other to multiple TDs.

 

[LukeButch]

Would you mind substantiating what TD (1) pays what's promised in his flyer or publicity, (2) meets the sanctioning guidelines players should expect, (3) pays back the Ams most or all of their entry fees, in the value of players packs and prizes, in addition to providing a tournament which they enjoy, and still considered to be taking advantage of them (or the system)?

Any examples?

payout in unwanted items(not discs that person doesn't throw, discs that are basically un-sellable). I remember having a high finish at an A tier as an AM and my payout was 7 DX discs with the likes of 2 165g DX sharks, and some duplicates of other players pack discs PLUS two donated CDs. On paper my payout could be listed as $100 value but real world value was maybe $30 haha. With a players pack I am sure they met PDGA requirements but on paper only. This was a club-ran event so if that money was going for course improvements or new baskets/teepads I can't see anyone getting upset. but its the not knowing part that some people don't like. As a TD I could add in some discs like tournament stamped CFRs that I paid $7 for and put retail value of them as $30 because thats what I say they are worth(limited edition!!). Maybe my problem is more with the system than anything I guess.

If its a good event people will come ... If its not they won't...simple as that. ?

how will newer players have the knowledge to judge? they will just assume thats the way all tournaments are.


for example- there is a person in my area who runs small events who is not a good TD in terms of basic running of an event(very unprofessional) and does basically no pre-event work other than ordering some discs and making a flyer. The only players who go to this TDs events are friends of the TD and tournament newbies. People stopped going to this persons events when they started wondering where the profit was going, as the numbers never added up...AND the event was poorly ran. People never wonder this at great events.

 

[WhiteyBear]

I hate the mentality of am disc golfers.

"I paid $30 to play, i expect $30+ in return with my players pack or else this event sucks."

Such entitlement issues.

 

[JC17393]

payout in unwanted items(not discs that person doesn't throw, discs that are basically un-sellable). I remember having a high finish at an A tier as an AM and my payout was 7 DX discs with the likes of 2 165g DX sharks, and some duplicates of other players pack discs PLUS two donated CDs. On paper my payout could be listed as $100 value but real world value was maybe $30 haha. With a players pack I am sure they met PDGA requirements but on paper only. This was a club-ran event so if that money was going for course improvements or new baskets/teepads I can't see anyone getting upset. but its the not knowing part that some people don't like. As a TD I could add in some discs like tournament stamped CFRs that I paid $7 for and put retail value of them as $30 because thats what I say they are worth(limited edition!!). Maybe my problem is more with the system than anything I guess.

Geez, Luke, when were you last an AM? 10 years ago? I'd wager that those TDs who paid out with their unsellable DX leftovers are mostly out of business at this point. I ran across them too when I was still an AM, and to a man, none of them are running tournaments if they're even involved with the sport at all anymore. More options, better options, more word-of-mouth (mostly via these here intertubes), etc just killed their "business". There was no need to change the system because the free market choked them out of existence.

And if these types of TDs still exist, but they're only supported by "friends and newbs", why isn't there an alternative to draw those newbs away at the very least? I'd rather go with a general sense of caveat emptor, than putting the 99% of good TDs on the defensive.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Despite all of the teeth gnashing regarding the standard am payout system, I believe ams as a group feel less entitled than pros who rarely contribute to the efforts of the TDs and finances. As a group, they expect to be paid back at least 100% and more in higher tiers and yet their skill has not brought in spectators let alone paying spectators to justify their expectations.

 

[Harrishabitat]

payout in unwanted items(not discs that person doesn't throw, discs that are basically un-sellable). I remember having a high finish at an A tier as an AM and my payout was 7 DX discs with the likes of 2 165g DX sharks, and some duplicates of other players pack discs PLUS two donated CDs. On paper my payout could be listed as $100 value but real world value was maybe $30 haha. With a players pack I am sure they met PDGA requirements but on paper only. This was a club-ran event so if that money was going for course improvements or new baskets/teepads I can't see anyone getting upset. but its the not knowing part that some people don't like. As a TD I could add in some discs like tournament stamped CFRs that I paid $7 for and put retail value of them as $30 because thats what I say they are worth(limited edition!!). Maybe my problem is more with the system than anything I guess.




how will newer players have the knowledge to judge? they will just assume thats the way all tournaments are.


for example- there is a person in my area who runs small events who is not a good TD in terms of basic running of an event(very unprofessional) and does basically no pre-event work other than ordering some discs and making a flyer. The only players who go to this TDs events are friends of the TD and tournament newbies. People stopped going to this persons events when they started wondering where the profit was going, as the numbers never added up...AND the event was poorly ran. People never wonder this at great events.

I don't know if you are intending to sound this way or not...but you are coming off as an ungrateful whiny child... So you got a bunch of stuff for playing but it was what you wanted or could resell??? Here's a suggestion....GO PLAY FREAKING OPEN IF YOU WANT STUFF!!!
geeze complain much? Simply if you are playing ams you shouldn't be doing it for financial gains...period!

And to your second point...thank you for proving my point. That guy ran a crappy event and people quit showing up... What more do you want... Public flogging?

 

[DavidSauls]

Thanks, Luke. It's universal around here that merch is paid in vouchers, redeemable at the player's choice from a wide selection, so I forget that it's not that way everywhere. I do remember getting a players pack at a long-ago A-tier that consisted of surplus tournament-stamped discs from other events, which was a bit cheesy.

The TD's cost has nothing to do with the value of the prizes. If the listed value is preposterous, yeah, perhaps players have a complaint of false advertising.

 

[LukeButch]

I don't know if you are intending to sound this way or not...but you are coming off as an ungrateful whiny child... So you got a bunch of stuff for playing but it was what you wanted or could resell??? Here's a suggestion....GO PLAY FREAKING OPEN IF YOU WANT STUFF!!!
geeze complain much? Simply if you are playing ams you shouldn't be doing it for financial gains...period!

Your DGCR profile says you've been playing just under 8 years. I turned pro before you started playing. And I'm a huge supporter of trophy only for AMs where there is no payout, and no ams have the chance to make a profit.

I'm an ungrateful whiny child because I don't want newbies and ignorant players to be taken advantage of, and I want TDs who do the most work to reap the biggest financial rewards? Not only do I not profit from this as a player, I lose money because in my ideal tournament am money stays with the am division and none goes towards MPO payout.

 

[jrawk]

Stores that run events make money off of merchandise sales, raffles, Ctp Games, etc. I'll reference an earlier post of mine in this thread... If it costs me a minimum of $17.25 per person in overhead alone to include a custom stamped disc pp, I'd need to charge at least $50 registration per player to have an average payout and $5 profit. No way Jose will that ever fly here. So we fundraise by selling sponsorships and club discs. Good affordable events pull in renewing club members and new club members that find/provide new sponsors, new club members, and buy more club stuff. Same with businesses running events. Same with manufacturers offering ace race style events.

 

[Harrishabitat]

Your DGCR profile says you've been playing just under 8 years. I turned pro before you started playing. And I'm a huge supporter of trophy only for AMs where there is no payout, and no ams have the chance to make a profit.

I'm an ungrateful whiny child because I don't want newbies and ignorant players to be taken advantage of, and I want TDs who do the most work to reap the biggest financial rewards? Not only do I not profit from this as a player, I lose money because in my ideal tournament am money stays with the am division and none goes towards MPO payout.

So please explain to me how long you have been playing pro and how long I have been playing have anything to do with any of this???

No you are an ungrateful whiny child because you were complaining about the payout you were getting because it wasn't what you wanted and you couldn't resell it (your words not mine). And I hate to break the news to you, but I don't remember electing you the defender of all that is good and righteous in the disc golf world. Good events will prosper and bad events will die... Nuff said. TD profits have ZERO to do with any of that.