Are we just making things up with nose angle stuff now?

[Kennets]

Thanks for the valuable information Chris, its something I haven't paid any attention to in a while.

Curious what Sheep is up to, hope you two have a conversation about it!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Good video Neil.

You kinda (ish), proved what i were trying to explain, or at least how it feels to me throwing from a briefcase setup.

That the wrist/forearm want to go into supination (whether it's a forced motion or not), because it feels horrible staying "briefcased" from the pocket and out.

found a way to grip to be able to keep it the disc orientation and just push it out with opening hand.

50 deg nose up which is closer to what I was expecting if I could actually throw it without reorienting the disc.

Multiple throws didn't even register because it had like no spin and it seems to use spin to help detect if an actual throw happened and then another throw it got confused prob from such low spin and it said 80 launch angle and 2 nose angle but it was probably 80 nose angle and negative launch angle.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

if you briefcase, the disc will practically go into position naturally. you dont have to roll your forearm to get it correct.

Breifcase isn't about flipping your arm around, its about staying relaxed and getting the disc gripped correctly.

Yes it will practically go into position naturally. But if you want to develop more control over the nose angle then you need to learn to manipulate the timing and the amount of supination and level of supination force—to learn to do this quickly instead of wait a long ass time to develop it intuitively over years, it can be very helpful to directly think about rotating the forearm at key moments and with different amounts of force an/or range of motion.

You don't have to time the last split second to develop more control of the timing, the timing is much easier to practice and learn by focusing on just when you start the supination—e.g., if you start it at the start of the pull through it's harder to get more nose down because it's likely to finish supinating too soon before the hit vs if you start it right after the disc comes into the chest which is a key transitional moment in the form (into pocket transitions to out of pocket) so it's easier to add a form change at a moment like that since it provides a clear moment/feel to hook into and synchronize with.

If your timing is consistent and not premature, then you can manipulate the amount of nose down without changing the timing but just changing how much supination force and range you use.

It's kind of similar to manipulating spin by directly curling the wrist more at a key moment so that there's more spin from more uncurl. Yes, the wrist will naturally curl some amount on its own without directly trying to manipulating it so it's not a requirement, but I can boost my spin on command by up to 300 RPM, maybe more if I practice it more.

The wrist wrist curl example is of course a pretty different feeling mechanical change compared to turn the key, but the general feeling of making the adjustment feels the same—choose a key time in the form to add a bit more of something (if not just changing to pre-curling)

A lot of people on here don't seem to like the idea of making conscious adjustments like this, but then on the course, practically everyone I've played with is regularly reacting to their throws and saying things like "I gotta throw it higher/lower next time, got to get the nose down, need more hyzer next time."

 

[CoachChris]

Thanks for the valuable information Chris, it's something I haven't paid any attention to in a while.

Thank you. Unlike some in this thread, I enjoy these type of rabbit holes because it makes me dig deeper into what is actually happening biomechanically.

I hope all 'listening' can understand (1) the wrist doesn't rotate. It only moves from flexion/extension and ulnar and radial deviation; (2) the 'forearm' pronates/supinates; (3) about 2/3rds of perceived "turning the key" comes from external shoulder rotation. (4) nose down is the angle in the target direction at the instantaneous separation of disc/hand. How you get there does not matter. (5) having a perfect professional looking on-plane throwing motion does not mean you are throwing nose level or down. (6) it's not about always throwing nose down, it's about knowing HOW to control the nose angle and it is as important as hyzer/anhyzer control.

 

[RowingBoats]

(6) it's not about always throwing nose down, it's about knowing HOW to control the nose angle and it is as important as hyzer/anhyzer control.

I honestly think its the most important angle. Its a debatable topic for sure, and both wildly affect the flight, but accidentally doing the wrong nose angle is game over for most throws that require a shape imo.

 

[isamoor]

Yea, I think it's safe to say nose down is the most important angle to be able to do on a driver. I can only take so much wear and tear these days, so I want to get the easiest flight for the least effort. And in my experience, nose down and higher spin put less stress on my body than chasing speed.

 

[RowingBoats]

A lot of people on here don't seem to like the idea of making conscious adjustments like this, but then on the course, practically everyone I've played with is regularly reacting to their throws and saying things like "I gotta throw it higher/lower next time, got to get the nose down, need more hyzer next time."

I think this is a slight misinterpretation of what people disagree with you mostly on. All of us make adjustments. None of us are perfectly consistent. Everyone has to learn how to make those adjustments that get us closer to what we intended to do the next try.

What I don't think many people do is try to do what I consider really weird things, like flipping the disc over the top or 'timing' the key turn differently at hyper specific moments. I absolutely promise you that none of that is necessary to alter the swing attributes that you are currently studying here.

I'm sure it can work for ya, but its an outlier mentality, and one that I think you yourself will probably deviate from eventually.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Thank you. Unlike some in this thread, I enjoy these type of rabbit holes because it makes me dig deeper into what is actually happening biomechanically.

I hope all 'listening' can understand (1) the wrist doesn't rotate. It only moves from flexion/extension and ulnar and radial deviation; (2) the 'forearm' pronates/supinates; (3) about 2/3rds of perceived "turning the key" comes from external shoulder rotation. (4) nose down is the angle in the target direction at the instantaneous separation of disc/hand. How you get there does not matter. (5) having a perfect professional looking on-plane throwing motion does not mean you are throwing nose level or down. (6) it's not about always throwing nose down, it's about knowing HOW to control the nose angle and it is as important as hyzer/anhyzer control.

When I say supination / turn the key, I assume it will be coupled with some external rotation as well so you can be assured when you read me that's baked in. Maybe we should create a hybrid term like supiexternal or some shit, lol. Maybe one already existed

The reason I just say supination and don't always include explicitly mention external shoulder rotation is because I think the supination should be the primary focus and the external rotation will come consequently and is less likely to be overdone than if people focus on the external rotation additionally.

I think there's also a timing issue if external rotation is focused on in addition to or instead of supination. However, if you focus on external rotation you'll probably also add in supination similarly. But, I'd guess the supination should be the driver so the external rotation is more likely to happen a bit later when the elbow is more extended rather than externally rotating sooner which I think increases the chance of a more dramatic elbow drop (reducing shoulder flexion). The elbow can maintain a raised position without dropping and simply rotate downwards with external rotation, but there's a temptation, particularly while the elbow is still bent / in flexion to also add in the reducing of shoulder flexion when externally rotating, but that same temptation is greatly reduced as the elbow gets more extended (closer to the hit, later on, hence me saying focus / start with supination so the subsequent external rotation happens later).

I think a lot of people can feel this temptation by putting the arm in the power pocket position with a disc and then externally rotate the shoulder without drop the elbow by reducing shoulder flexion and the hand will rise up a lot due to the forearm becoming vertical and I think there's an intuition to not let that happen too much (plus it's less comfortable to keep the elbow up as you get deeper into external rotation) so the elbow drop is a common reaction. Then extend the elbow so the arm is straight out in front of you parallel to the ground when standing and when you externally rotate the shoulder there's less temptation to reduce shoulder flexion as well because the hand is not rising up so dramatically.

Didn't get a chance to reread your post on where the external rotation happened most though so not sure if this tracks.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

flipping the disc over the top or 'timing' the key turn differently at hyper specific moments.

Flipping the disc over severely is just the most exaggerated form of the cue, which as with many things when you try for the first time, and you feel like you made a big change you barley did anything. A lot of people here seem to agree in general that exaggeration can be a useful tool to jump start some changes.

It's a not as hyper-specific-with-negative-connotation as you seem to imply, there's a very clear easy moment in the form to identify and target to start the supination as I elaborated on a few posts back rather than trying to time some last moment which just happens as a consequence of when you focus on the start of the motion instead during a more easily targetable moment and phase of the form.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I honestly think its the most important angle. Its a debatable topic for sure, and both wildly affect the flight, but accidentally doing the wrong nose angle is game over for most throws that require a shape imo.

It kinda depends on what you are throwing... angles man.. angles. As a solid gyro supporter there's one thing I see all the time with people that don't throw it is forcing nose up shots over, and over the top. Gyro don't play that way. For the most part. A lot of the new stuff flips but they worked on that for years to make them more like other discs.

@disc-golf-neil I'm getting back to better, tried a few different grips butbhavent experimented much/ enough to weigh in...

...but I've been working a hyzer rotation with a turn the key and yeah there's a tighter margin and more that go's wrong if you don't time it but ifni nail it I'm getting pain free distance. Biggest thing I've noticed is that when I go for my anny shots and stuff where I try to go accurate line I just can't put the Ol English on like I used to guvnah. That army stuff is killing me.

If I can keep on this hyzer rotation battering ram turn the key and break down the door crap I'm going to extend my longevity.

TLDR turn the key is aiiiiggght.

 

[RowingBoats]

Flipping the disc over severely is just the most exaggerated form of the cue, which as with many things when you try for the first time, and you feel like you made a big change you barley did anything. A lot of people here seem to agree in general that exaggeration can be a useful tool to jump start some changes.

It's a not as hyper-specific-with-negative-connotation as you seem to imply, there's a very clear easy moment in the form to identify and target to start the supination as I elaborated on a few posts back rather than trying to time some last moment which just happens as a consequence of when you focus on the start of the motion instead during a more easily targetable moment and phase of the form.

I ain't hating man I get it

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I ain't hating man I get it

Didn't read it as hate or reply as if it was

 

[Sheep]

Please get in touch with me before you post it so I can take a look.

I can't say I understand the purpose?

This is honestly a super easy topic, the issue is people want it to be complicated, and then there is some advocating for this bandaid gimmick to work.

The overall issue with nose angle in general is easy to break down.
The downside is, a lot of people were taught really poorly how to throw and then over time developed more and more bad habbits that make it even harder to break those bad habbits in posture. And with all the bad instructino on the internet over the years and all this and that adding together, when actual proper information is presented, nobody wants to listen to it.

They want their garbage swing to be correct, so gimmicks like "turn the key," which wasn't' even about nose angle to begin with, become some "magic pill" to fix peoples bad form.

Because people are interested in quick fixes regardless if it hurts them. They want the "add 50 feet to your throw doing this" video's. They dont want "hey, your swing plane is probably off, lets look at how to fix that to help you get the nose down" video's. Because they are long and complicated.

They want that "oh just flip your wrist over, it fixes everything."
No, your fixing to start hurting yourself when you don't have all the correct information.

And this WHOLE thread was me trying to emphasize that issue.
It's a few people advocating for a stupid gimmick that "can" be used in certain situations, but none seem to understand why, or how it works because they don't have enough experience to actually understand basic body mechanics.

Don't even need a degree to figure out some of this stuff. But people so hard up to have whatever be the "next thing."

I'm not interested in viral video's, or "the next thing." I'm interested in trying to give people the most information possible before they do some stupid gimmick and blow their elbow out like this turn the key dumb shit is going to do to people.

 

[Sheep]

I ain't hating man I get it

Hater.

 

[StupendousMan]

Tech disc came in yesterday and had a chance to play around with it a bunch. I know the numbers aren't going to be perfect, but as long as they're consistent relative to each other that's all I'm really hoping for. The actual numbers are relatively immaterial to me.
Second caveat, I've only been playing about 3.5 years, I'm very much going through the DK effect still and I wouldn't take anything I say as anything other than that lol.

I played around with a whole bunch of different grips. 2 fingers, 3, 4, different palm placements, how deep into my palm the disc was, pouring tea, turning the key, you name it. Literally none of it had any relevant effect on nose angle. Range was -3 to +3 through all the throws, and within every adjustment. Like any grip change I could get between -3 and +3 depending on how well I did the rest of the throw. Which, I kind of expected to be the case based on what I've read, but again, I still don't know what the hell I'm talking about yet, so it was nice to test it out and see if it affected me.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Tech disc came in yesterday and had a chance to play around with it a bunch. I know the numbers aren't going to be perfect, but as long as they're consistent relative to each other that's all I'm really hoping for. The actual numbers are relatively immaterial to me.
Second caveat, I've only been playing about 3.5 years, I'm very much going through the DK effect still and I wouldn't take anything I say as anything other than that lol.

I played around with a whole bunch of different grips. 2 fingers, 3, 4, different palm placements, how deep into my palm the disc was, pouring tea, turning the key, you name it. Literally none of it had any relevant effect on nose angle. Range was -3 to +3 through all the throws, and within every adjustment. Like any grip change I could get between -3 and +3 depending on how well I did the rest of the throw. Which, I kind of expected to be the case based on what I've read, but again, I still don't know what the hell I'm talking about yet, so it was nice to test it out and see if it affected me.

Cool, thanks for sharing. If you keep testing these things follow up with if your stats start to change.

When I do the F1P-3 grip alignment from throw 3 in the 10 throws vid, I don't always get more nose down right away than my normal grip without turning the key. Sometimes I got to get used to it again for a bit because it's not my usual grip. With turn the key, if I do it too early or gently but with good timing I end up with my usual nose angle.

In both cases though, once I actually hit more nose down with it, it suddenly becomes more accessible. It's like the phenomenon of once you see / feel it's possible it becomes much easier to do it again and more consistently in fewer attempts so I'm interesting if you run into that if you keep testing these things.

Did you also try combining turning the key with that F1P-3 grip alignment?

Also, start making the the throw sets, imo, because although your range was the same the averages might've been a bit different and maybe you were more consistently nose down or up with something. That's happened to me multiple times before thinking in real time it seemed similar until getting the throw sets together to see the average.

 

[Sewer bill]

Played with sidewinders tech disc on Wednesday and made some important observations.

It can be tricked. Repeatedly. A soft whiff of a throw similar to a backhand approach shot into the net will be in the low 50s. Throw again, drastically more mph. The second throw was easily 15-20 mph faster visually. Tech disc says mid 50s. Multiple people were able to repeat this. Throwing further from the net made no difference.

Need radar gun and overhead camera and tracking indicator on disc to qc the tech disc mph and rpm data.

Untrustworthy tool at this point.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Played with sidewinders tech disc on Wednesday and made some important observations.

It can be tricked. Repeatedly. A soft whiff of a throw similar to a backhand approach shot into the net will be in the low 50s. Throw again, drastically more mph. The second throw was easily 15-20 mph faster visually. Tech disc says mid 50s. Multiple people were able to repeat this. Throwing further from the net made no difference.

Need radar gun and overhead camera and tracking indicator on disc to qc the tech disc mph and rpm data.

Untrustworthy tool at this point.

What are the exact steps to reproduce? I'll see if I can reproduce it. And did you try resetting it?

I've had mine get stuck reading throws I know to normally be 60+ as high 40s and low 50s but it hasn't been a problem because it's been accurate enough, enough of the time, to know that something is off and then a few restarts or charging the battery so it's not on low battery fixes it. So I don't think I've every been fooled in a big way by a speed glitch because it's obvious when it happens once you have a large sample of baseline stats to draw from.

Just like if you used a radar gun and it read your throw as 20 mph faster randomly or slower you'd know right away the reading was off and disregard it if you had thrown many times into a radar gun before.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Played with sidewinders tech disc on Wednesday and made some important observations.

It can be tricked. Repeatedly. A soft whiff of a throw similar to a backhand approach shot into the net will be in the low 50s. Throw again, drastically more mph. The second throw was easily 15-20 mph faster visually. Tech disc says mid 50s. Multiple people were able to repeat this. Throwing further from the net made no difference.

Need radar gun and overhead camera and tracking indicator on disc to qc the tech disc mph and rpm data.

Untrustworthy tool at this point.

That might be specific to that unit. I've never seen remotely that level of variance in my throws. You might have a defective one, or there's a way to exploit it with non-throw movement that I've not personally experienced.

 

[RowingBoats]

Played with sidewinders tech disc on Wednesday and made some important observations.

It can be tricked. Repeatedly. A soft whiff of a throw similar to a backhand approach shot into the net will be in the low 50s. Throw again, drastically more mph. The second throw was easily 15-20 mph faster visually. Tech disc says mid 50s. Multiple people were able to repeat this. Throwing further from the net made no difference.

Need radar gun and overhead camera and tracking indicator on disc to qc the tech disc mph and rpm data.

Untrustworthy tool at this point.

Interesting. I can't really vouch for the spin rate or angles it throws out, but they seemed plausibly accurate. My speed was 60+, and under 65 on my throws I tried which was almost exactly what I expected.

I can throw a slightly turning fairly standard drive with a wave right around 430-450' so...it seemed to line up with what I tend to actually see when I play.

I didn't read about any best practices, but I had heard that it calibrates itself with a moment of being stationary before a throw, so I did try to let it have that moment. I have absolutely no clue if that affects the output or not though.