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*also, when I put my drive foot in a better leveraged position, I just noticed that a muscle in my rear hip is less flexible than SW22's in the OtC drill. It gets pretty tight and resists me swiveling all the way back comfortably. So I'm going to tuck that rear toe a little more toward the target and use OtC as a stretching drill moving back deep into the backswing swivel while in leverage. Disc golfers must be athletes!
What's the point of all Eli's swiveling here as he drops back before actually throwing? Seems kind of overwrought and wasteful energy-wise. Back and forth. Quick, almost-cyclical role transition. Like dancing. One action setting up and flowing into the next until STOP expel the energy/throw the football.
Quoting each of you so you can witness your handiwork
Well, I was gonna wait a few days but so much changed after working only on OtC drill today for an hour along with some thoughts SocraDeez, Navel & azplaya suggested that I wanted to share.
I noticed two problems in my OtC drill:
1. Rear of tee - I wasn't allowing adequate space to backswing so I could transition thru the door frame drill-like drop. I got close to sorting that out, can keep fussing with it.
2. I still wasn't quite getting "seated" or compressed on the rear leg. The resistance of the rear leg into the ground is a big part of how turning back is supposed to work but I kept missing it at first. Something suddenly clicked after 30 minutes of failure and it stared working on the new ride the bull axis. JFC it feels better.
Once I fixed both of those I moved way more easily into the crush. Like it looks very smooth on camera but I feel maybe 1.5-2x heavier when I drop off the rear leg. It actually surprised me and I thought something was wrong at first. The whip effect feels much higher after I plant now. I am getting a much bigger ground force reaction, a faster shift, and I'm suddenly not feeling any knee torque.
3x OtC from rear of tee, 3x drill throws, 3x throw throws (feel free to ignore, I was just trying to work on the swivel transition).
These are very raw but look & feel dramatically different.
Skiing/head pendulum is still a deep problem and I think sticking with the plan otherwise the next couple weeks is wise. I'm going to keep working on the swivel & shift into the plant and see if swivel stairs/progressively bigger RTB on top of that does some of the work on its own.
I went from feeling like I was doomed to ruin my knee to seeing the daylight again today, thank you <3
*quick important note - I can clean up how my arm leads the disc through the pocket while doing OtC drill. This seems to help my posture and gets a much cleaner and higher leverage hit. Zing!
Journaling/shout out to Navel. All consistent w/ my ~2 week plan.
My plant landing is already feeling much better, more powerful, and I seem to be fighting off horse stance. Navel pointed out that my rear leg still wasn't really getting my foot pressure to the outstep before shifting, and I felt the leg dragging while my body accelerated too soon ahead of the drive step.
I finally connected the dots between that idea (which required going slow) and RtB (which required adding momentum, but still in control). I found that if drill a big, dynamic RtB, then spool up a similar feeling RtB back and forth in my setup, I can easily get momentum and feel the feet. Then when I swing I need to be patient to let everything swing back w/ pressure to the outstep of the rear foot. It feels much more like the standstill foot pressure, and my hips are not quite as loosey-goosey and I don't swing as much over the top when I land. It feels more like a One Leg throw on the plant side now with more leverage. I'm officially sore from all the new moves so break time.
Obviously a little messy here while I'm exaggerating stuff but this is basically an entirely new move. WAY easier on the knee FWIW:
last OtB drill for convenience. I think this one still has a touch of horse stance in the rear leg so I'll keep working on that:
My swing is definitely morphing much faster than I expected. I couldn't resist and threw another 30 minutes or so. Massaging in RtB at setup, a little Berkshire stomp, and paying attention to foot pressure to beat the horse stance helps a lot. My feet seem to kind of just flow over the ground like dance yet still very strong. Very cool feeling. Once the horse stance is lessened my hips are starting to swivel and rock and clear more naturally. Feels nice.
I'm not throwing hard at all but it feels like my forearm is holding on for dear life and my arm is moving much faster into deceleration- right pec gets a good stretch.
I can still tell I'm not quite skiing. I think that's why my drive move & landing is a bit wrong and my hips still aren't quite rolling quickly through the swivel like the pros - my action's just a bit too flat to angle into the landing ideally.
I'll prioritize ramping up the Bull ride over a bigger range of motion & shift from behind and swing in the drill & then get a drill motion check.
For that, my knee and hips definitely need rest for the next stage to be productive. I wish they didn't! Rest, you nutcase.
OtC drill - your rear foot is pigeon toed in, instead of flared out. Probably close to 45-60 degree angle difference between yours and mine.
Your x-step still suffers from your pelvis being open and blocking/twisting your x-step. You want your pelvis closed/preset booty before x-step while upper body is attempting to remain on target.
OtC drill - your rear foot is pigeon toed in, instead of flared out. Probably close to 45-60 degree angle difference between yours and mine.
Your x-step still suffers from your pelvis being open and blocking/twisting your x-step. You want your pelvis closed/preset booty before x-step while upper body is attempting to remain on target.
Thanks ok, let's focus fire on this problem first b/c I gotta fix this open pelvis and drive move to make any progress. I think I was getting the booty preset I felt in swivel stairs, but I needed to fix the way my hip swivels back in OtC by changing the foot angle.
This is yet another completely different-feeling move.
New OtC drill, OtC throw, immediate effect on swing x3. I had to exaggerate the move a bit to feel the difference and still find leverage moving over the rear leg. Only tried a few going slow since I'm "resting".
OtC drill - your rear foot is pigeon toed in, instead of flared out. Probably close to 45-60 degree angle difference between yours and mine.
Your x-step still suffers from your pelvis being open and blocking/twisting your x-step. You want your pelvis closed/preset booty before x-step while upper body is attempting to remain on target.
In that last one I got my pelvis closed and the shift from behind was back after OtC tweak. The booty was preset.
BUT I knew the first move over my front leg was still wrong and felt very unlike swivel stairs with my front side getting in the way of my X-step.
So I went back to Swivel stairs and focused only on that part moving as slow as possible. The problem was that I was still trapping my center behind the front leg when moving on flat ground. I think I fixed it.
Now, the first step leverages me forward, but this time the rear leg is swinging in unimpeded like in SS. When my X-step lands I can get Hershyzer leverage with my feet less turned back from the target.
Here's me walking it out on flat ground then new swings. In X-step I purposely started with my feet too far back so it felt very clear when I had my hips closed and shifted from behind like OtC. Then I started nudging the toes a little more toward the target bit by bit trying to retain the new mechanics. Feels much less like I'm fighting my own body in transition FWIW.
Thanks, that feels more like my standstills now. Going to keep working OtC w/that.
X-step: I've still got my eye on my front hip. Even with the pelvis sloped the right way, it's getting pushed a little open (and maybe pulled open by my pump) when I start putting weight on the first step. That's causing my knee to swivel back late and that's part of what's putting me a little "over the top"/rising into the hit there.
Part of what's confusing my body is how to get the leverage forward keeping that front hip closed like these guys rather than opening. It's pretty clear to me how that works in swivel stairs or spinning backfist but it's hard to master moving forward on flat ground with my pelvis in that orientation. The only time in my life that my leg has swung like that before with a closed hip is when I did shuffle backkicks, but those have the pelvis tilted in the wrong direction.
Maybe a new way to think about it is to just focus on maintaining the booty preset (valid idea?) through each step and not letting my pump open me up rather than worry about micromanaging my legs or feet themselves. If that sounds ok I'll fuss with that next moving real slow for a bit while I'm doing low impact stuff.
(0:00) how it went & what changed as I ran
(0:32) last run of the day
Throwing a bit later. I think the running is already helping the move off the front leg into x-step. My knees are much happier. Throwing with more momentum to feel what I'm learning from running helps. Rhythm into the shift might get better with run practice. I'm still not completely riding the bull here.
So how about: continue practicing sideways run, do OtC drill with proper tilt, and then when legs are fresh, work on progressively wider Riding the Bull including the backswing and swing?
* walking it out very slow this AM, in x-step It's getting it easier to get and keep the booty pre-set & pelvis in aggressive posture moving over the front leg in the step before the x-step without leaning away. I can get my backswing to feel more like double dragon/build more tension/set up the hips to release faster when I land w/ less over the top. The backswing gets the pressure more to the outstep of the drive foot as I'm shifting forward than that last x-step. It seems like I drop into my front leg just like when I land on it in OLD and my hips aren't slipping forward sideways toward the target. Will play w/ that and my current stack a bit, this seems promising!
Yeah, I think I need to stick with the current drill stack to clean up a few issues listed here. But I'm starting to transition & land a little better, and this looks a hell of a lot better than even a week ago overall. So in order of focus w/ drill plan:
1. I always need to preset booty and maintain in the transition to x-step. (Do the sideways run maintaining booty preset)
2. Feeling Pratt drill balance & Rocking/riding the bull in my setup helps prime the move. Need more RtB in transition to plant, still too much hip sliding toward target rather than the most abrupt drop (Do RtB drill progressively wider)
3. Be patient in the backswing, and make sure I've always got clean tilt getting leveraged against the rear leg turning me back (Do OtC with correct tilt)
4. In actual throws, I'm realizing that I need to get comfortable letting the step before x-step always function as a hop (like the running) from the "booty preset" position rather than a slow stride to get it to work correctly. The waltz swing thought doesn't seem to transfer the force quite the same way for me. My body does seem to be learning to respond to the momentum a little better each time I throw.
I found a couple neat tricks to massage RtB and the booty run into the throw & thought I'd share (& so I don't forget what worked lol).
First, did short sideways runs in my basement to warm up and my legs are already feeling much more coordinated and quicker. Then I started to do RtB wider and put a lot of focus one "softness on toes" but "plant w/ strength/weight into heels" building up a rhythm. I also paid attention to the Pratt part of the drill as I started moving. This time I was getting a lot more ground reaction from my legs. My legs felt super sturdy when I landed and the move felt more athletic and easy back and forth. If I make the stance too wide in RtB it starts to feel more like a lunge than a shift or drop, so now that I feel the difference I have started to do it at a width similar to yours.
Usually when I throw I have rhythm problems with a new move. It was helpful to exaggerate the RtB rock a little more vertical in my setup w/ booty preset to help train rhythm and get my weight stacked into the legs and override my old habits. The problem was that when I actually threw was that it was too "Jack in the box" and tended to make the leverage a little too slippery moving into the throw. It was harder to keep the booty leading etc.
So after messing with that for a while I gradually made it much more compact in my setup and did little rocks. I waited until I felt the backswing load into my rear foot correctly. Then I started my forward move at the peak of the baby backswing. This allowed me to lead with the booty with way more leverage more like running and launch/get pulled effortlessly into the swing. It feels so cool.
This feels basically like a brand new move. The rhythm etc will take some time but it looks like my shift and tilt are starting to adapt a bit with this strategy. I tested a few variables and the swing quality (including how closed my hips are in transition and the weight shift) right now seems most related to the setup rhythm, RtB feel & axis, and the integrity of my first move/run off of the rear side, so I'll focus on those parts and the drills for a week or two or whenever the old habits are gone.
My knee isn't 100%, but I threw a LOT and it feels better today than it did before I threw last night. Legs are a bit tired but not hurt. Really appreciate it as always. I might actually be able to go outside this weekend!
First two are showing more "jack in the box," last two shrinking to more compact/like running.
Additional self-motivation so I don't get distracted/practice coaching eye/looking for any disconfirming evidence. It's subtle but it looks like we are nudging the form on course even just over a couple days. The biggest change I noticed was that even though the axis can improve, the torque force was getting a little larger moving leg to leg.
We can wait a couple weeks for form critique while I wait for new moves to stabilize*, but I made three improvements to my indoor/outdoor training today. Sanity checks welcome.
1. I found that Ialways need to think about beginning of the move like a sideways run or gallop. If I don't, I always revert to one or another clunky uncoordinated motion pattern. The reason I think I need ~two weeks is because I can tell my legs and balance are still trying to make get used to starting the move that way, and relearning the transition into the final stride & dynamic bracing/skiing will take reps. Anyway, you can see below what motion pattern my legs are starting to do with that swing thought.
2. Sideways runs: I ran around the baseball diamond several times. I ended each baseline with a backswing & plant stride. This seems to be helping to prevent me from chickening out & combat "over the top" swings when I add more momentum. I'll keep doing that.
3. I added targets to the blanket at slightly different positions between navel and shoulder level to simulate different lines of play. You can see that the ones more like low line drives seem to be helping get me more ground leverage/compressed bringing everything more aggressively toward the target. Will keep working on those now. Now that this feels much safer I'm going to start throwing putters in my nearby small field again when I can.
*Played a pro level bomber course yesterday focusing on the new motion pattern. My aim and power were unsurprisingly poor, but my goal was just to get out of there starting to commit to the changes without hurting my plant knee. I was able to eek out some pars on the back 9. My knee feels great today and handled the increasing momentum I added in practice very well so far.
The run/gallop/booty preset part seems firmly in my body today. I have increasing control of it moving slower. Knee's good. Let's talk about my RtB/shift.
I added the little part here and **** immediately hit the fan. My shin angles were a mess and I had poor stability/mAss shifting each way so I knew something was deeply wrong. Same problem in my throws, of course!
I tried for an hour to fix it, got frustrated and walked away, then about 10 minutes later I wondered if what was missing was the internal rotation that OtC exaggerates. It was way harder to find at first in the RtB posture, but I could immediately tell it was missing once I focused on it. I have the mirror issue in the plant leg as usual.
This part is the same in moves like skaters/rollerblading and feels clear in two step reciprocating dingle arm. I also feel this in my standstills but kind of stopped noticing it after it became unconscious. For some reason it just wasn't happening in RtB or my swing with the legs moving. The gallop feels completely different when I exaggerate it a bit.
I want to show it another way to confirm how I think the "big picture" parts of the move should work. The first part is that the head is balancing into the feet with the spine swaying back and forth like Pratt drills. The second part is that with the right OtC-like internal rotation at the hips, it's like the upper body/trunk (here including the pelvis) is a single unit like a cylinder that's allowed to roll back and forth from backswing to swing. Getting "on top" of each leg requires both of these parts to happen together.
Here's:
1. the RtB move again the first time trying the little swing shift after I added the OtC-like internal rotation.
2. Also threw in a two step reciprocating dingle arm + then
3. one throw exaggerating what I'm talking about. Please lmk if I should fix any other parts of these:
The run/gallop/booty preset part seems firmly in my body today. I have increasing control of it moving slower. Knee's good. Let's talk about my RtB/shift.
I added the little part here and **** immediately hit the fan. My shin angles were a mess and I had poor stability/mAss shifting each way so I knew something was deeply wrong. Same problem in my throws, of course!
I tried for an hour to fix it, got frustrated and walked away, then about 10 minutes later I wondered if what was missing was the internal rotation that OtC exaggerates. It was way harder to find at first in the RtB posture, but I could immediately tell it was missing once I focused on it. I have the mirror issue in the plant leg as usual.
This part is the same in moves like skaters/rollerblading and feels clear in two step reciprocating dingle arm. I also feel this in my standstills but kind of stopped noticing it after it became unconscious. For some reason it just wasn't happening in RtB or my swing with the legs moving. The gallop feels completely different when I exaggerate it a bit.
I want to show it another way to confirm how I think the "big picture" parts of the move should work. The first part is that the head is balancing into the feet with the spine swaying back and forth like Pratt drills. The second part is that with the right OtC-like internal rotation at the hips, it's like the upper body/trunk (here including the pelvis) is a single unit like a cylinder that's allowed to roll back and forth from backswing to swing. Getting "on top" of each leg requires both of these parts to happen together.
Here's:
1. the RtB move again the first time trying the little swing shift after I added the OtC-like internal rotation.
2. Also threw in a two step reciprocating dingle arm + then
3. one throw exaggerating what I'm talking about. We can ignore for now.
Please lmk if I should fix any other parts of the drills:
