Maxing out @ 300ft...

[Blake_T1]

Thanks, Blake. On 1), it's hips, then shoulders, then arm, right?

hips, shoulder, arm, shoulder/hip.

 

[racer93]

Well, so I have been practicing what I read today about getting hips into the timing and timing itself. I "think" I found something and wanted to see if it makes sense.

I was just going through the motions without a disc and found that when I rotated the hips, then shoulders, then arm, my hand felt like it was going very, very fast. In fact, my hand was cutting through the air making a sound almost like a golf club does when swung properly. (Not that fast, but you get the sound idea.)

I was loose throughout the swing. When I tightened up, it was *noticably* slower. Does this sound right? If you do a "practice swing," does the same thing happen for you or anyone?

Daniel

 

[jubuttib]

Yeah, definitely. Without a disc I can feel the chop better and accelerating late (and hard) is pretty straightforward. With a disc in my hand I can't get the same feeling at all though...

 

[racer93]

Yeah, definitely. Without a disc I can feel the chop better and accelerating late (and hard) is pretty straightforward. With a disc in my hand I can't get the same feeling at all though...

You know, I can pop the living snot out of a towel ala Feldberg, but I have had the hardest time trying to get the same action on a disc. Wierd.

Daniel

 

[racer93]

Another question, this time about grip. Is the point of a good grip to have the disc tight in your hand WITHOUT having to grip tightly? In other words, the disc is comfortably tight in your hand without you having to tighten your muscles to keep it in your hand? If so, is the power grip the best to start with? I really have a problem with the disc slipping out of my hand and I need assistance on this in order to really get to the pinnacle of my game, whatever that may be.

 

[black udder]

Another question, this time about grip. Is the point of a good grip to have the disc tight in your hand WITHOUT having to grip tightly? In other words, the disc is comfortably tight in your hand without you having to tighten your muscles to keep it in your hand? If so, is the power grip the best to start with? I really have a problem with the disc slipping out of my hand and I need assistance on this in order to really get to the pinnacle of my game, whatever that may be.

If you hold a disc in the power grip with your finger tips (not pads) pressed against the inside of the rim and you push the disc down into your palm and rest your thumb over on the top edge of the disc near where your index finger is underneath you'll find you create a pretty good "hook" effect with your fingers with nary any grip at all. Basically just point your fingertips toward your palm, then stick a disc rim under them.

When you add some pressure to it, it's really a tight grip. It's the grip I use for throws where I want 100% of my possible distance (not 100% effort though). I use a Climo/hybrid birdie grip for anything under that.

Stay loose and controlled - what you said about the power build up is correct. You just need to be able to maintain your focus so that you:

a) Get the disc into the power zone (instead of letting it drift away from your chest)
b) Pull late instead of pulling from the back and making sure you accelerate through the hit.
c) Grip tightly at the end to hold the disc as long as you can.

Starting slowly and building speed will help you do more of those until it's all natural.

 

[Blake_T1]

Another question, this time about grip. Is the point of a good grip to have the disc tight in your hand WITHOUT having to grip tightly? In other words, the disc is comfortably tight in your hand without you having to tighten your muscles to keep it in your hand? If so, is the power grip the best to start with? I really have a problem with the disc slipping out of my hand and I need assistance on this in order to really get to the pinnacle of my game, whatever that may be.

most grip slips are caused by mis-timing and wrong body positions. wider rims increase the chance of this happening.

blaming grip slips on too loose of a grip is like blaming grip locks on too tight of a grip.

basically, you will be prone to a slip if you do not reach the point of contact before your shoulders open beyond 90 degrees. your videos showed that you were waaaaay behind in the timing of this and your disc wasn't reaching the point of contact until you were almost facing the target.

 

[racer93]

most grip slips are caused by mis-timing and wrong body positions. wider rims increase the chance of this happening.

blaming grip slips on too loose of a grip is like blaming grip locks on too tight of a grip.

basically, you will be prone to a slip if you do not reach the point of contact before your shoulders open beyond 90 degrees. your videos showed that you were waaaaay behind in the timing of this and your disc wasn't reaching the point of contact until you were almost facing the target.

I have taken your advice and gone back to discs with rims of 1.9cm or less (predator, TB, leopard, etc). I can definitely feel a difference, even though my fingers are very long and felt more "comfortable" in my hands.

When you say open beyond 90 degrees...90 degrees relative to what? The target, or perpendicular to the target?

 

[racer93]

If you hold a disc in the power grip with your finger tips (not pads) pressed against the inside of the rim and you push the disc down into your palm and rest your thumb over on the top edge of the disc near where your index finger is underneath you'll find you create a pretty good "hook" effect with your fingers with nary any grip at all. Basically just point your fingertips toward your palm, then stick a disc rim under them.

This is the grip I started using, just messing around. When I did, the discs came out of my hand so incredibly fast and with much more force, I was shocked. I also was shocked at how much I was grip locking and throwing the discs waaaaaay to the right. I take this as my "mis-timing"? I guess this is what Blake was talking about in the above post...

I think I'm starting to get this, little by little. Watching David Wiggins Jr really made something click. Between him and a friend of mine who could throw 500'+, I realized something. It's that when you watch them, their throwing arm is almost "pulled out of socket" from the speed of the shoulders and torso spinning before they start the arm pull. Once I worked on the hip-shoulder-arm progression, I can feel this same thing and think I might be on the verge of a breakthrough. I haven't been able to get out to the field and practice, but I will try it today. I'm excited to try it...


Daniel

 

[Blake_T1]

When you say open beyond 90 degrees...90 degrees relative to what? The target, or perpendicular to the target?

this is one of those things that you will grasp more if you figure out which answer makes sense on your own rather than having me spell it out for you.

180 = chest facing away from target
90 = shoulder pointing at target
0 = chest facing toward target

your rotation goes from 180 to 0 at a constant speed.

in order to facilitate the point of contact and the rip, your rotation needs to have a pause (or at least a slow-down). e.g. 180 to 90 (or 80, etc.), pause, then 90 to 0. it's probably more of a slow down than a pause, but the concept is the same.

if you really watch the shoulder rotation of big throwers you'll see their rotation speed goes fast slow fast.

I also was shocked at how much I was grip locking and throwing the discs waaaaaay to the right. I take this as my "mis-timing"?

correct.

 

[black udder]

most grip slips are caused by mis-timing and wrong body positions. wider rims increase the chance of this happening.

blaming grip slips on too loose of a grip is like blaming grip locks on too tight of a grip.

basically, you will be prone to a slip if you do not reach the point of contact before your shoulders open beyond 90 degrees. your videos showed that you were waaaaay behind in the timing of this and your disc wasn't reaching the point of contact until you were almost facing the target.

I have taken your advice and gone back to discs with rims of 1.9cm or less (predator, TB, leopard, etc). I can definitely feel a difference, even though my fingers are very long and felt more "comfortable" in my hands.

When you say open beyond 90 degrees...90 degrees relative to what? The target, or perpendicular to the target?

You stand chest facing 90 degrees from your target. You turn another 90 and your back is to your target. You then pivot back to your chest 90 degrees from target. You want your elbow to unchop at that point (meaning all your momentum uncorking at the right pec position (and that being your chest is 90 degrees from the target)). Once your lower arm starts moving, it's a matter of timing and feeling your motion, catching up to it and pulling harder and extending your wrist at just the right time so you add to your momentum built from the hip and shoulder pivot from 180 degrees to 90 degrees.

Bottom line is you start your pull when your chest is 90 degrees from the target, not when it's past or facing the target. You're grip locking because you've turn your shoulders past 90 degrees from the target and you're hitting it late.

Watch the slow mo drives on the site and on youtube and watch when the elbow starts to open up. You'll see that their chest is 90 degrees from the target. The movement is so fast and fluid though, it looks like they're chest facing the target when they pull.

edit - okay I just said the same thing as Blake in more words. I'll leave it in case anything makes sense.

 

[Blake_T1]

another drill i've done with people to work on rhythm/timing is almost like mitt punching with a boxer.

basically, i'll hold my hand slightly beyond their body for them to hit it with their elbow. once they hit it with their elbow i'll quickly shift it farther away from them for them to hit it with the back of their hand.

most people hit it with the elbow and have already over-rotated by that point making it tough to deliver force with the back of the hand. these are the same people who get slips where the disc leaves at the point of contact and they only hit it hard on grip locks.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Blake,

Let me see if i understand you correctly.

Basically, you are standing on the same side as the person's throwing arm, but lets say one step further back.

You have one hand where their elbow will hit, and then could have your opposite hand where their hand should hit.

Then your basically having them do the right pec drill.

They do a little hip rotation as if reaching back and then hit their elbow on your hand then extend the forearm so that their hand hits your other hand.

do i have this right? kind of like breaking down a pimp slap for maximum hoe slapping ability?

I only ask because i use to be a pimp called Silky Smooth, and sometimes i find my self screaming "WHERE'S MY MONEY" after i throw a disc. :wink:

 

[racer93]

another drill i've done with people to work on rhythm/timing is almost like mitt punching with a boxer.

basically, i'll hold my hand slightly beyond their body for them to hit it with their elbow. once they hit it with their elbow i'll quickly shift it farther away from them for them to hit it with the back of their hand.

most people hit it with the elbow and have already over-rotated by that point making it tough to deliver force with the back of the hand. these are the same people who get slips where the disc leaves at the point of contact and they only hit it hard on grip locks.

So when this drill is done, the person doing the exercise with chest 90 degrees from the target, right? Is this similar or the same as Dan B's elbow dril? Sounds like it.

 

[black udder]

another drill i've done with people to work on rhythm/timing is almost like mitt punching with a boxer.

basically, i'll hold my hand slightly beyond their body for them to hit it with their elbow. once they hit it with their elbow i'll quickly shift it farther away from them for them to hit it with the back of their hand.

most people hit it with the elbow and have already over-rotated by that point making it tough to deliver force with the back of the hand. these are the same people who get slips where the disc leaves at the point of contact and they only hit it hard on grip locks.

So when this drill is done, the person doing the exercise with chest 90 degrees from the target, right? Is this similar or the same as Dan B's elbow dril? Sounds like it.

yes, chest 90 degrees from target.

Since Blake taught Dan, it's possible it's a product of Blake's

 

[racer93]

another drill i've done with people to work on rhythm/timing is almost like mitt punching with a boxer.

basically, i'll hold my hand slightly beyond their body for them to hit it with their elbow. once they hit it with their elbow i'll quickly shift it farther away from them for them to hit it with the back of their hand.

most people hit it with the elbow and have already over-rotated by that point making it tough to deliver force with the back of the hand. these are the same people who get slips where the disc leaves at the point of contact and they only hit it hard on grip locks.

So when this drill is done, the person doing the exercise with chest 90 degrees from the target, right? Is this similar or the same as Dan B's elbow dril? Sounds like it.

yes, chest 90 degrees from target.

Since Blake taught Dan, it's possible it's a product of Blake's

Gotcha.

I think one thing I'm doing is stopping my chest rotation at 90 deg. I was out at the field this am for a little bit and I think my chest is not coming fully around and thus my arm is not getting the full "whip effect." I seem to be stopping my arm, as it's not pulling my torso around (as I've heard over the years it should).

I was getting my discs out to 350 or so today with no run up. (TB, Champ Katanas, Leopards, Buzzzes, Comets. Comet was consistently the longest disc.) Still way short and no snap.

BTW, if you couldn't tell, I am one that really needs a teacher to learn. I don't learn well by self-study. I really wish I had a buddy or someone that could watch and tell me what the hell I'm doing wrong. So, obviously, I DO need it spelled out. :lol:

Ok, so watching more videos of Dan and others, it seems they're getting WAY more elbow into their throws than I am. That's got to be part of it. Timing is a huge thing as well. As I said above, I'm getting my Buzzzes and comets out to 350' consistently flat and no OAT. Drivers were not very high, maybe 20', as were the mids. Thoughts on this?

I'm really sorry for being such a tough nut to crack. I don't have much else going on and I REALLY want to figure this out...gettin' kinda frustrated...

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

you could always practice the drill that Blake talks about by using a padded mat or mattress and standing it up against the wall.

if you are a Caged Fighter, i might recommend a brico block wall or a heavy gauge steel door.

 

[Blake_T1]

They do a little hip rotation as if reaching back and then hit their elbow on your hand then extend the forearm so that their hand hits your other hand.

correct. i tend to use the same hand and shift it because the forearm extension should take them through the same line as where their elbow hit. however, it should be the back of the hand that is the second hit.

if you really want to show someone how f'd up their throw is, have them try it with a full reachback at full speed and watch how bad their 2nd hit (the hand hit) is.

I think one thing I'm doing is stopping my chest rotation at 90 deg. I was out at the field this am for a little bit and I think my chest is not coming fully around and thus my arm is not getting the full "whip effect." I seem to be stopping my arm, as it's not pulling my torso around (as I've heard over the years it should).

in your videos you weren't stopping your chest at all, it was during a constant speed rotation from 180 to 0. the whip effect is VERY minor compared to snap. if you can conserve the momentum of your whip and still snap it, that is good, however, most people can't snap it if they try to whip it.

what you don't seem to understand is that the POWER OF THE THROW HAPPENS AS THE DISC PASSES YOUR BODY AND BEYOND. the body actually does very little work compared to work that snap does.

So when this drill is done, the person doing the exercise with chest 90 degrees from the target, right? Is this similar or the same as Dan B's elbow dril? Sounds like it.

one, the right pec and elbow drills are mine and i taught them to dan

the purpose of that drill is to teach people how to "hit it" and then integrate more and more motion while they are still hitting it. e.g. do the double hit using 0 torso rotation. do the double hit using 45 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation + a reach back, and so on.

the biggest thing you can learn from this is if you spin your torso from 180 to 0 you won't deliver a forceful hit with your elbow nor your hand.

 

[racer93]

in your videos you weren't stopping your chest at all, it was during a constant speed rotation from 180 to 0. the whip effect is VERY minor compared to snap. if you can conserve the momentum of your whip and still snap it, that is good, however, most people can't snap it if they try to whip it.

what you don't seem to understand is that the POWER OF THE THROW HAPPENS AS THE DISC PASSES YOUR BODY AND BEYOND. the body actually does very little work compared to work that snap does.

one, the right pec and elbow drills are mine and i taught them to dan

the purpose of that drill is to teach people how to "hit it" and then integrate more and more motion while they are still hitting it. e.g. do the double hit using 0 torso rotation. do the double hit using 45 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation. do the double hit using 90 degrees torso rotation + a reach back, and so on.

the biggest thing you can learn from this is if you spin your torso from 180 to 0 you won't deliver a forceful hit with your elbow nor your hand.

I do understand (in my mind) that the energy is imparted in the last part of the throw. I've got that from reading a lot of your postings. I'm trying to focus on that part of the throw (only accel my arm then, not before) but I'm just not doing something. I feel I'm making some progress and I can see exactly what others are doing to get big D (500'+), but I just can't get my body to do the same. (This is unusual, as I've found that I could generally control my body well.)

Sorry about thinking it was Dan's. Ooops.

So, I think you are absolutely right about my hips. It's odd that I'm keeping the disc really close to my chest, trying not to accel with my arm until the right pec, but I still don't seem to have a "hip pause" before the hit. As I said, I'm going to post a video or two tonight that shows what I'm doing during a standstill throw.

Today, I was getting about 350' with my surge ss. Not the best, I know. This is flat, straight throw with no turn.

Thanks for your help and patience. I know I must be frustrating the living you know what out of you right now. I'm just glad you're here to help.

EDIT: Ok, so I filmed my drives and they look almost identical to the previous drives I posted. WTF? I don't get it. I feel really down and that I'll just be stuck at this driving distance. Argh.

Two vids I just took:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D32F5kXl7Dg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLZu1uTpRIY

Enjoy for those sick enough...

 

[Blake_T1]

well, you are actually hitting a bit more in those videos than the previous ones. you have a bit of acceleration in the new videos that wasn't there in the old ones.

you still aren't exploding on it though, and the same items that i wrote about before still apply, especially obtaining visual contact as your force is far from being focused.