Maxing out @ 300ft...

[Blake_T1]

You can add speed and probably do by using your muscles to actively straighten the arm from the right pec position forward. Elbow chop is incidental plus active component combined.

correct.

learning to stop the elbow to trigger the chop is one thing (this is how to enter the power zone with the correct timing/positions). learning to accelerate the chop to deliver more force is another (this is really how to increase power).

you can throw 360-380' pretty much limp arming it through the chop assuming the chop was triggered correctly. to get 460-480' you need to be able to power it correctly after the chop begins.

And making sure I don't start turning my shoulder.

this is correct. most people rotate too quickly, never allowing the chop to happen on its own. this is why with most players, their grip locks will fly disproportionately far compared to their straight throws.

The craziest thing I noticed is the speed of the disc towards the end of its flight. It looks slow but you can still tell it is penetrating the air.

this is probably more of a factor of nose down than velocity, but part of the mechanics of this is that it gives more nose down than it would otherwise. basically, it's a sign that things are happening "better" or "more correctly" than they were before.

 

[jppbkm]

I have been having a hard time understanding how to stop the elbow lately. Just imagining it hitting a post as JR or JHern described was not working for me. However, I think I may be starting to understand part of how it should feel. I often just mess around the house swinging my arms and my wife always looks at me like I am crazy but...what I realized is that in Blake's technique article on snap where he shows the video of how the wrist snaps, for the wrist to snap like that the elbow has to stop. Am I getting close here? I am going to get out this afternoon in the beautiful Charlotte weather (almost 60 and sunny :twisted: ) and see if I can get a feel for this. Will report back with observations :roll: .

 

[JR]

I have been having a hard time understanding how to stop the elbow lately. Just imagining it hitting a post as JR or JHern described was not working for me. However, I think I may be starting to understand part of how it should feel. I often just mess around the house swinging my arms and my wife always looks at me like I am crazy but...what I realized is that in Blake's technique article on snap where he shows the video of how the wrist snaps, for the wrist to snap like that the elbow has to stop. Am I getting close here? I am going to get out this afternoon in the beautiful Charlotte weather (almost 60 and sunny :twisted: ) and see if I can get a feel for this. Will report back with observations :roll: .

The elbow has stopped much earlier in the video. The hand shoots forward from the elbow being straight and everything from shoulder to wrist being pretty much stopped in place. Arm being straight at the onset of wrist stopping in place but opening. Wrist _too_ in addition to the elbow stays in relatively small space but the hand moves. And once the disc leaves the incidental motions and arm motion move the whole arm into follow through.

 

[cmlasley]

This is a great thread, guys. Thank you for all the participation. I mean it.

 

[zj10021]

yeah I am really digging some of the info in this thread. I max out in the 400-425 range and this thread has been super helpful in seeing some things I can change. I already knew some major flaws I have, but this has only reinforced exactly what I need to work on

 

[Steady 26542]

Agreed! Great thread. Now if I can just put it together. I know I've never stopped the arm. I'm always slinging it around my body. I try to use more elbow, but that didn't add much if any D. Leading with the torso did add some D but I still max out at 370' with a perfect throw with a Pro Boss. (Which I know I shouldn't be throwing... :mrgreen: ) On average, if I'm trying for max D I probably get around 325 on average with my MOLFs & SOLFs. I'm going to try working on stopping the arm. I think I understand what to do, I don't know how to do it yet or how it feels. To be continued...

 

[Blake_T1]

I have been having a hard time understanding how to stop the elbow lately. Just imagining it hitting a post as JR or JHern described was not working for me. However, I think I may be starting to understand part of how it should feel. I often just mess around the house swinging my arms and my wife always looks at me like I am crazy but...what I realized is that in Blake's technique article on snap where he shows the video of how the wrist snaps, for the wrist to snap like that the elbow has to stop. Am I getting close here?

the video shows the behavior of the wrist during the chop. when the forearm/hand stops moving forward and changes direction to the right it releases the wrist. in those videos the wrist is snapping to neutral, but it should ideally extend to beyond neutral.

the elbow has to stop for the forearm to extend/chop. the forearm has to stop moving forwards (aka change directions) for the wrist to extend/snap.

 

[scoopa]

correct.

learning to stop the elbow to trigger the chop is one thing (this is how to enter the power zone with the correct timing/positions). learning to accelerate the chop to deliver more force is another (this is really how to increase power).

you can throw 360-380' pretty much limp arming it through the chop assuming the chop was triggered correctly. to get 460-480' you need to be able to power it correctly after the chop begins.

I think I will practice limp arming it for a while. If I can get to a consistent 380' then that will keep me happy as I continue to work on accelerating more right before the hit.

I have been having a hard time understanding how to stop the elbow lately. Just imagining it hitting a post as JR or JHern described was not working for me. However, I think I may be starting to understand part of how it should feel. I often just mess around the house swinging my arms and my wife always looks at me like I am crazy but...what I realized is that in Blake's technique article on snap where he shows the video of how the wrist snaps, for the wrist to snap like that the elbow has to stop. Am I getting close here? I am going to get out this afternoon in the beautiful Charlotte weather (almost 60 and sunny :twisted: ) and see if I can get a feel for this. Will report back with observations :roll:

What did it for me was just continuing to move my elbow towards the target, like I was nudging someone with it as my torso was turning. When I did that and my elbow stopped. Then the forearm swing-out took care of itself. If I moved my arm where the shoulder is attached I was spray way right - normally in a hyzer. It also caused me to lose power. Like Jhern was discussing you have to keep the shoulder kinda rigid.

Also, I have found you can only go so far with living room training. Things started really clicking when I went out and threw. The actions of barely whipping the hips, turning the torso, stopping the elbow, and flinging out the forearm don't feel as powerful as a "strong arm" throw, but when you feel that tug on your fingers and see the disc soar it almost makes you look twice. That is part of the reason I tried to bomb it out with my forehand. It was hard to believe the results at first with such seemingly little effort!

 

[Blake_T1]

What did it for me was just continuing to move my elbow towards the target, like I was nudging someone with it as my torso was turning. When I did that and my elbow stopped. Then the forearm swing-out took care of itself. If I moved my arm where the shoulder is attached I was spray way right - normally in a hyzer. It also caused me to lose power. Like Jhern was discussing you have to keep the shoulder kinda rigid.

Also, I have found you can only go so far with living room training. Things started really clicking when I went out and threw. The actions of barely whipping the hips, turning the torso, stopping the elbow, and flinging out the forearm don't feel as powerful as a "strong arm" throw, but when you feel that tug on your fingers and see the disc soar it almost makes you look twice. That is part of the reason I tried to bomb it out with my forehand. It was hard to believe the results at first with such seemingly little effort!

another thing people can try to build the feeling is to hold a towel like you are throwing a disc and practice snapping it.

the towel should snap abruptly/cleanly and STRAIGHT AHEAD (with a noticeable pop). if the towel swings out and around, your timing and mechanics were off.

basically, a good timing pull = when you enter the follow through segment immediately beyond the hit, the tail of the towel will be dragging behind your hand. a bad timing pull = when you enter the follow through segment immediately beyond the hit the tail of the towel will already be beyond your hand.

i will say that it's not the easiest thing to integrate back into a throw. once you start generating the correct kind of snap (it will likely involve stopping some of the motions) that is actually where you need to be pulling through and applying force.

what makes snap so difficult to teach/learn is that most people's timing and positions are so f'd up that you need one set of drills to fix those and allow the correct motions to "flow" and then another set of drills to actually add power through the flowing motion.

i made a sweet diagram to show good vs. bad towel behavior:

 

[Blake_T1]

PS:

if someone has a pc drawing tablet they would be willing to donate (or sell to me dirt cheap) my diagrams would likely increase slightly in quality/accuracy.

 

[masterbeato]

is one of the differences between 430' and 480' the release point is out further?

 

[Blake_T1]

no.

if the towel swings around instead of snapping outward it means the acceleration isn't happening.

 

[Blake_T1]

here's a video i encoded of Tomas Ekstrom from the 1993 worlds video. the jump cut editing makes it tough to really see all of the form, but this is the root of swedish technique.

 

[scoopa]

Ah ha! I like that observation with the towel Blake! Coincidently when you do that with enough speed you also get that clean sounding for lack of a better word "snap" - not the sluggish "whoosh". What is even neater is that you can do that with slower speed NOT get the sound but if the positions are right you can still see you are accelerating! The towel will point out and still smack the wall etc... Did I mention neat?

 

[Toomes1]

Since I'm snowed in and needed something to do, I'm filming myself trying to snap a towel. I've always had trouble doing this and I want some suggestions on how to fix it. I'll get the high speed vids up soon.

 

[Mason65]

Is that the same Tomas of L64?? That hair is epic!

 

[Toomes1]

Since I'm snowed in and needed something to do, I'm filming myself trying to snap a towel. I've always had trouble doing this and I want some suggestions on how to fix it. I'll get the high speed vids up soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtOM2oayviY

 

[black udder]

Try not turning your shoulders around until you get into the right pec area. You're coming around too far and opening up so you don't get the tight pull. You could practice slowly just doing right pec type stuff without turning your shoulder, but do it slow and not fully so you don't hyper extend your elbow.

Shoot for pulling hard out of the right pec position and stopping your elbow sooner. Looked like the elbow went right past your target.

 

[Blake_T1]

Since I'm snowed in and needed something to do, I'm filming myself trying to snap a towel. I've always had trouble doing this and I want some suggestions on how to fix it. I'll get the high speed vids up soon.

you have no pause in rotation to trigger the elbow extension.

 

[keltik1]

Is that the same Tomas of L64?? That head band is epic!

fixed that for ya