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[Innova] New Innova Stuff
- Thread starter SD86
- Start date
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
I thought about that last night. I wonder how long it will be before someone makes a perfect copy of a tbird or destroyer...
Not saying that it isn't (a "copy") but you do realize that 2 discs with the "same numbers" (at least only the ones that are usually stated) can be radically different. Bluntness of nose, concavity of wing (or lack thereof), bead / flashing amounts, etc., etc.
Even if the DO make a 'perfect copy', people will say it isn't (fan-boyism).
I'm kind of glad it hasn't (hopefully will never) gotten to that litigious extent.
Even if the DO make a 'perfect copy', people will say it isn't (fan-boyism).
I'm kind of glad it hasn't (hopefully will never) gotten to that litigious extent.
Brockness Monster
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah-nagl fhtagn
- Joined
- May 15, 2018
- Messages
- 1,131
Haven't we been through this? Disc companies have been ripping off each others molds from the start. How many Aviar Clones are on the market? Buzz? Roc? Should it happen? My thought is no, but I think we are moving into an era where plastic choice is the new king. I would love for Kastaplast to make every single disc I currently throw in K3.
texasissouth
Double Eagle Member
That seems fairly disingenuous toward the whole patent system.
You can patent new ideas based off the following criteria, it must meet all three
1. Novel
2. Non-Obvious
3. Useful
A disc with different measurements is just that, a disc.
There isn't anything novel about a new set of measurements. In addition, the Dagger being in the public domain without a current patent immediately disqualifies it.
You'd also have to argue that the changes in dimensions from one disc to another would be non-obvious to someone skilled in the arts, which would not fly for a majority of the examples. Even MVP failed to get a patent on their overmold as it failed the "non-obvious" clause due to prior art.
Most famous DG related patent is US5531624A. Which 3-p will have to illuminate more on Disc Golf history as I am ignorant in that area, I assume all discs up until that patent were lid based. Therefore the idea of beveling the lower edge is novel, as no one had seen it yet, non-obvious, as no traditional lids had hinted toward that before, and useful as it allows the disc to travel farther. I'd have to open the file wrapper for the patent itself to see what prior art was cited but I don't feel like it and a lot of old patents haven't been digitized.
You can patent new ideas based off the following criteria, it must meet all three
1. Novel
2. Non-Obvious
3. Useful
A disc with different measurements is just that, a disc.
There isn't anything novel about a new set of measurements. In addition, the Dagger being in the public domain without a current patent immediately disqualifies it.
You'd also have to argue that the changes in dimensions from one disc to another would be non-obvious to someone skilled in the arts, which would not fly for a majority of the examples. Even MVP failed to get a patent on their overmold as it failed the "non-obvious" clause due to prior art.
Most famous DG related patent is US5531624A. Which 3-p will have to illuminate more on Disc Golf history as I am ignorant in that area, I assume all discs up until that patent were lid based. Therefore the idea of beveling the lower edge is novel, as no one had seen it yet, non-obvious, as no traditional lids had hinted toward that before, and useful as it allows the disc to travel farther. I'd have to open the file wrapper for the patent itself to see what prior art was cited but I don't feel like it and a lot of old patents haven't been digitized.
Lurp Nuts
* Ace Member *
Yes, now it's Innova's turn to copy somebody else. With all the attempts by newer companies to copy the Aviar, Teebird, Roc, and Destroyer, I'd say by now that turnabout is fair play. What comes around, goes around.
SD86
Banned
Not saying that it isn't (a "copy") but you do realize that 2 discs with the "same numbers" (at least only the ones that are usually stated) can be radically different. Bluntness of nose, concavity of wing (or lack thereof), bead / flashing amounts, etc., etc.
Even if the DO make a 'perfect copy', people will say it isn't (fan-boyism).
I'm kind of glad it hasn't (hopefully will never) gotten to that litigious extent.
This. Is it really a Dagger clone, the measurements notwithstanding? It might be, but it might not be.
Also, the Firefly could be a Dagger clone in every way except Innova goes and put the V-Tech bottom on it. Close to the Dagger (the Whale is a lot like the Dagger but is V-Tech), but just that wee bit different...
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
I thought MVP's patent was approved?...
SD86
Banned
Their process may have been approved, but just having an overmold is not, as the Nova and Atlas attest to.
Whatever did happen to the Atlas?
opcorn:
BuzzzChief
Double Eagle Member
MVP's patent covers an overmolded disc where the outer ring is made from a material with a substantially higher specific gravity (density). How that is "non-obvious" when there is prior art of overmolded discs, I don't know.
texasissouth
Double Eagle Member
Oh you're right, it hadn't been last I checked (I think 2016) but it was published Aug 15, 2017. I guess they took it to arbitration because I thought I remembered seeing it had been given a 2nd Rejection office action. Which is usually it.
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/pub...815&DB=&locale=&CC=US&NR=9731216B2&KC=B2&ND=1
Claims are the important legal boundary of any patent. Their patent is limited to a certain density range for both the center and the overmold, and the overmold material must be more dense than the center.
Edit: they REALLY wanted this patent, they fought through 2 final rejections haha
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gammaxgoblin
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2016
- Messages
- 822
Their process may have been approved, but just having an overmold is not, as the Nova and Atlas attest to.
Whatever did happen to the Atlas?
nobody of note bagged it so its just there....like the katana
Streets
* Ace Member *
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2012
- Messages
- 10,596
So why not stick with Daggers?
Casey 1988
Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!
Yep Innova had the old Areo mold not the remake one ripped off and a bead added to the disc by Lighting with the Rubber Putter as the first near copy. DGA took an Innova disc at one point and cut the disc wing down to specs they wanted and then wiped the stamp off with another the put on it as if it was there own disc. Innova threatened to sue others if they made a disc with Aviar style wing like Gateway tried to do when Innova still had a patent on the wing style even though the disc supposedly was not going to be that close to an Aviar it was going to be a deeper rim and rounder nose.
SD86
Banned
The Katana is not unpopular, and 2015 USWDG Champ Hannah Leatherman (among others) bags one. :thmbup:
The Atlas... more like the Groove... found at Academy Sports, but not many other places...
:thmbdown:
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Casey 1988
Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!
The Katana is not unpopular, and 2015 USWDG Champ Hannah Leatherman (among others) bags one. :thmbup:
The Atlas... more like the Groove... found at Academy Sports, but not many other places...
But the Atlas is a good mold, a few pros like Juliana Korviar has one and a few others as a short midrange in the bag they have. I think that the Atlas is unpopular but not as much as one thinks. I see in my area players with that disc just as much as the Nova as both are not as popular where I live as more players use other brands and if they have all Innova they pattern the bag after other pros then Paul McBeth often the one from Minnesota, a guy from Wisconsin or other Innova players that live near South Dakota or even the Philo bag but often with the KC Aviar or Aviar 3 and KC ROC mold or ROC 3 mold rather then the Classic Grid Aviar or the DX ROC .
Casey 1988
Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!
Juliana K has a Atlas in the bag. She should be noteworthy enough to warrant players with the disc in the bag.
SD86
Banned
It's good that a respected player like Juliana Korver bags an Atlas, but I'm not really thinking of pros bagging it. I'm not sure the Atlas is selling to casual players, either. Maybe the Infinite Disc guys could give us an idea of how well Atlases are selling...
opcorn:
texasissouth
Double Eagle Member
The Atlas is a great mid. Very neutral for probably the majority of players with sneaky distance. I gave one to a friend of mine, kind of flies like a longer Evidence.
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