[Discmania] Official Ask Discmania Thread

[pjhayes7]

Exactly this! DM has been reactive instead of proactive, and that is just bad business.

So what exactly would you call the Evolution and Active line expansions. I admit the agreement with Innova ultimately was unsustainable and should have been obvious for a while. Maybe it is worse than you make it out to be. Innova could be the one saying, "nope, we are only going to run your discs if we have time unless you pay this much more money for extra time". Who knows if that would make the margins basically nonexistent for those molds.

But to say DM is doing nothing proactive is ignoring facts. They probably should have gotten expanded lines/agreements with other manufacturers sooner, but better late than never. Yes they have and will probably lose sales if they drop the Originals line, but how is it different from the situation of getting no production during the pandemic anyway. Almost like the decision was already made for them. Seems like the perfect time to cut the cord.

Good businesses don't avoid mistakes, that is impossible. What makes you a bad business is never course correcting when the inevitable mistakes do come. It seems like DM may be doing that. And i would argue that to continue the Originals line is probably a worse strategy for them long term than to end it now.

You are coming at this as a consumer and fan, they have to think about it as building something sustainable even at the cost of short term losses.

 

[seedlings]

It's also possible that some of the recent molds have been attempts to recreate the Originals (Essence to FD, Enigma to DD3, Origin to MD, etc.) BUT the reverse engineering, while close, is off a bit.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Fact: Innova has several identical mold assemblies for their popular discs (thanks flick for some actual facts), so they can be duplicated. Whether reverse-engineering them is illegal, is a different question. It can most certainly be done.
Fact: Discmania is in business to make money, just like Innova. Jussi and Dave will act in ways that maximize their profitability over time. Both will act in their own best interests, as they should. Jussi did this (acting in DM's best interests) by expanding DM to Evolution and Active lines.
Fact: Innova is prioritizing making discs for other partners instead of DM.
Speculation: My suspicion is that Dave saw this expansion (Evolution and Active) as counter to Innova's best interests and so he has effectively cut off DM to cultivate new, more dependent and predictable revenue streams (Infinite, etc).
Fact: How DM reacts to and adapts to Innova's decision (to favor other partners) will depend on their contractual relationship, and DM's own best interests.
Speculation: Recognizing how brand-loyal and name-loyal many (most?) disc golfers are (also recognizing that DGCR forum followers are a tiny minority), I doubt that Innova and DM will completely part ways. It seems to me that it would not be in eithers best interests.
Fact: DM will continue to move away from dependence on Innova and begin (as they have already announced) using Evolution and Active discs for special Tour Series and Fundraising discs.
Fact: They will continue to produce discs that meet the needs and requests of their Tour players (Tilt, Splice, Mutant, Logic, Link, etc, etc).
Speculation: I doubt that Eagle and Simon, etc are considering moving away from DM. Most touring pros have YEARS worth of discs that they can call on, even if Innova never makes another DM disc.

 

[Ahildy13]

I know that Simon and Eagle care about DM, and like to be on the team, but I also believe that both of them are worth a contract equal to or greater than Mcbeths $10 mil; simply because of their social media presence.
I'm going to say that they will end up on the teams that can afford them, and I don't know that DM can.

 

[pjhayes7]

I know that Simon and Eagle care about DM, and like to be on the team, but I also believe that both of them are worth a contract equal to or greater than Mcbeths $10 mil; simply because of their social media presence.
I'm going to say that they will end up on the teams that can afford them, and I don't know that DM can.

I suspect DM may be able to back the truck up for one of them, but not both. I would suspect it would be Eagle, as he has the more overall promising future. I am sure Innova would be glad to have Simon. And then he could start throwing a bunch of "Champion plastic" discs that are Huk dyed to hide any removed stamp.

Whoever signs Eagle to his next contract, i suspect it will be similar to the McBeth one and as you argued, will likely pay off more in the long run. Eagle to me is the most valuable marketing tool any disc golf company can have.

 

[dehaas]

The initial cost for equipment and space to mold your own plastic is probably quite a bit.

Early on if the relationship worked, why rock the boat? The money not tied up in equipment can be used for other things…such as contracts for Eagle and Simon.

Jussi came from a marketing background prior to Discmania. He's not like Dave D and Dave Mac, or the MVP bros who are all disc/plastic nerds. Not surprising things were ran to coincide with his strengths and not with his weaknesses. Pretty much all of us would do the same thing.

I still think whatever we're going to see in a couple of days will boil down to the contracts between Innova and DM and how well or poorly they were written. And I still think some kind of efforts to work out a solution had been attempted…not like this alleged breakup came completely out of the blue.

 

[VictorB]

facts vs speculation

You have some good points, but the real meat of the 'what and why' lies within those speculation points.

We don't know if 1. DM created the Evo/Active lines as a proactive or reactive measure, 2. if Innova manufacturing decisions were root cause for those lines being created, and 3. why Innova is seemingly pushing down priority of DM runs, or if that is a direct result of DM creating additional lines with other companies

I think those are the real questions we want to know answers to (but will likely never find out, as the real answers will likely tarnish one of their brands images). Maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

 

[soothsayer]

^^^This!

Can you say Tilt? What a 'worthless' disc - 9/1/1/6. Simon and Eagle say it can't be thrown like a normal disc and works best upside-down. So who would want a disc like that? BUT....Simon designed it and Eagle has thrown it in tournaments....so of course it sells out immediately.

Its actually an awesome disc that is VERY useful. Just not for drives. (I was lucky enough to get a mystery box!) Ill be buying a Meta Tilt as soon as I can.

 

[pjhayes7]

You have some good points, but the real meat of the 'what and why' lies within those speculation points.

We don't know if 1. DM created the Evo/Active lines as a proactive or reactive measure, 2. if Innova manufacturing decisions were root cause for those lines being created, and 3. why Innova is seemingly pushing down priority of DM runs, or if that is a direct result of DM creating additional lines with other companies

I think those are the real questions we want to know answers to (but will likely never find out, as the real answers will likely tarnish one of their brands images). Maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

No, i would bet most of us in the discussion feel the same way. We would love to know the answers to those did they or didn't they questions. And I would not be surprised if some or many of the questions got some sort of answer over time, if not the complete one.

Honestly, if it comes out that Innova did not want to run sufficient DM discs to meet the demand, that does not make them the bad guy unless they are breaking part of the contract. It may be the case that no one looks bad because they did nothing wrong and only acting in their own best interest.

 

[BillFleming]

You have some good points, but the real meat of the 'what and why' lies within those speculation points.

We don't know if 1. DM created the Evo/Active lines as a proactive or reactive measure, 2. if Innova manufacturing decisions were root cause for those lines being created, and 3. why Innova is seemingly pushing down priority of DM runs, or if that is a direct result of DM creating additional lines with other companies

I think those are the real questions we want to know answers to (but will likely never find out, as the real answers will likely tarnish one of their brands images). Maybe I'm just speaking for myself.

4. are they just repeating themselves with different companies? (Does DM own the Evo/Active molds or just the names).

 

[soothsayer]

4. are they just repeating themselves with different companies? (Does DM own the Evo/Active molds or just the names).

I am not super familiar with Lat64 molds. Are the DM Evo discs "similar" to any of the Lat64 discs? What I mean is: is Lat64 using existing mold pieces to make the Evo discs or are they unique molds? I think this would go towards answering your question.

If they are unique there is a good chance that DM learned their 'lesson'.

 

[BillFleming]

I am not super familiar with Lat64 molds. Are the DM Evo discs "similar" to any of the Lat64 discs? What I mean is: is Lat64 using existing mold pieces to make the Evo discs or are they unique molds? I think this would go towards answering your question.

If they are unique there is a good chance that DM learned their 'lesson'.

We can only hope they learned their lesson. I don't know about the Latitud64 and Yikun molds (one is producing DM's Active and one is producing Evolution line per my understanding). Even if they aren't using molds they already own....it's possible DM asked the other companies to create the molds and Latitude64 and Yikun might actually own the molds. Kind of....we paid for the mold supplies, we made the mold...we will use the mold for your discs, but the mold belongs to us. If that is the situation, then nothing has really changed for Discmania.

I'm looking forward to hearing what Discmania has to say. Until then, we can only guess what is going on.

 

[SuperWookie]

I am not super familiar with Lat64 molds. Are the DM Evo discs "similar" to any of the Lat64 discs? What I mean is: is Lat64 using existing mold pieces to make the Evo discs or are they unique molds? I think this would go towards answering your question.

If they are unique there is a good chance that DM learned their 'lesson'.

Yes, they are very similar to other Lat64 molds. I have an Instinct, Essence, and Enigma, and all of them feel similar to some Lat64 disc I have or have touched. For example, the Instinct is very similar to the Lat 64 Explorer, and flies very similar.

Which isn't a bad thing per say. Lat 64 makes amazing plastic and molds. It's just that everyone who wants a DM disc, wants the EXACT SAME DISC that Simon or Eagle throws. And they both only throw Originals for the most part.

However, you are seeing both of them start to throw some of the new discs Lat 64 is producing for DM, but they are more utility or gimmick discs. Not the tried and true meat and potatoes discs they use like the MD, MD3/4/5, FD, FD2, FD3, PD, and PD2. That's what all the super fans want. So even though the new discs from DM (Lat 64) are good stuff, it's not what people want to buy.

Now if Simon and Eagle actually switch over and start using/bagging the Lat 64 discs IN tourneys, THEN you'll see DM sales go up for sure! Maybe that is the goal of Jussi and DM... to get Simon and Eagle to start bagging more of the new Lat 64 discs? Who knows? But most people just want to use what their favorite pros use, regardless of whether it's better or worse haha

 

[Rastnav]

Yes, they are very similar to other Lat64 molds. I have an Instinct, Essence, and Enigma, and all of them feel similar to some Lat64 disc I have or have touched. For example, the Instinct is very similar to the Lat 64 Explorer, and flies very similar.

Which isn't a bad thing per say. Lat 64 makes amazing plastic and molds. It's just that everyone who wants a DM disc, wants the EXACT SAME DISC that Simon or Eagle throws. And they both only throw Originals for the most part.

However, you are seeing both of them start to throw some of the new discs Lat 64 is producing for DM, but they are more utility or gimmick discs. Not the tried and true meat and potatoes discs they use like the MD, MD3/4/5, FD, FD2, FD3, PD, and PD2. That's what all the super fans want. So even though the new discs from DM (Lat 64) are good stuff, it's not what people want to buy.

Now if Simon and Eagle actually switch over and start using/bagging the Lat 64 discs IN tourneys, THEN you'll see DM sales go up for sure! Maybe that is the goal of Jussi and DM... to get Simon and Eagle to start bagging more of the new Lat 64 discs? Who knows? But most people just want to use what their favorite pros use, regardless of whether it's better or worse haha

Eagle has played both the Splice and the Mutant a "metric f***ton" this year.

 

[seedlings]

Kyle Klein is throwing some new molds. Funny that Ricky pulled out a PD2 I thought I heard Gatekeeper say.

 

[dehaas]

If DM wanted a bunch of silly overstable discs for Simon and Eagle to throw they should've talked to Dave Mac at Gateway about producing stuff for them.

Kinda joking, kinda serious.

Their new plastic blends are actually fairly legit.

 

[soothsayer]

RIP ORIGINALS (?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI9uyC1W1-Q

 

[DiscJunkie]

That's what it sounds like…

 

[soothsayer]

https://www.discmania.net/pages/next

what do people think of this?

 

[Horsman]

So a teaser to let us all down?