[Discmania] Official Ask Discmania Thread

[pjhayes7]

Its looking more and more like the Originals are going away... I wonder if Infinite will just start ordering all the Originals and give them different names? I would LOVE that, especially since Infinite runs all their discs in awesome plastics on a regular basis, instead of just once in a while getting some color glow discs or some metal flakes. Being able to get Color Glow "MD3"s for less than 150$ would be a nice change lol.

If indeed the Originals line is abandoned by Discmania, there is no way Innova will abandon those molds all together. However, how much of the popularity is due to the people that throw them vs the actual molds themselves. As i mentioned earlier, i suspect if this happens, you will have limited releases sold directly by Innova, but probably only of 3 or 4 of the most popular molds. MD3 and PD to me are the most obvious. P2 is already replicated elsewhere in the Innova lineup and PD2 is probably not different enough from Destroyer to bother much. I just don't see Innova selling these for anything other than a limited run, i mean that is pretty much what Discmania has been for most of their history anyway.

 

[soothsayer]

If indeed the Originals line is abandoned by Discmania, there is no way Innova will abandon those molds all together. However, how much of the popularity is due to the people that throw them vs the actual molds themselves. As i mentioned earlier, i suspect if this happens, you will have limited releases sold directly by Innova, but probably only of 3 or 4 of the most popular molds. MD3 and PD to me are the most obvious. P2 is already replicated elsewhere in the Innova lineup and PD2 is probably not different enough from Destroyer to bother much. I just don't see Innova selling these for anything other than a limited run, i mean that is pretty much what Discmania has been for most of their history anyway.

The FD is one of their most unique and loved discs. Theres just something different about that combination of mold pieces that is hard to find elsewhere. I think Innova will just rename the molds and produce them under their own name. They would sell the crap out of FDs, PDs, P2s, etc with animal names instead. Or I could see Infinite releasing rebranded Discmania molds under their line of discs.

Edit: I forgot, they could just release Fireflys in DX and KC Pro plastic (instead of just Nexus) since that is pretty clearly a P2.

 

[BillFleming]

So does that mean that Dismania can have Lat64 make a new mold part and make the "Originals"?.

No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

 

[biscoe]

No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

Patent numbers on Innova made discs do not refer to individual molds. They reference the now expired patent on beveled edge discs (4568297). Newer Innova molds do not have patent number on them to my knowledge.

 

[pjhayes7]

The FD is one of their most unique and loved discs. Theres just something different about that combination of mold pieces that is hard to find elsewhere. I think Innova will just rename the molds and produce them under their own name. They would sell the crap out of FDs, PDs, P2s, etc with animal names instead. Or I could see Infinite releasing rebranded Discmania molds under their line of discs.

Edit: I forgot, they could just release Fireflys in DX and KC Pro plastic (instead of just Nexus) since that is pretty clearly a P2.

Yeah, I think rebranding as an Innova disc makes more sense instead of just giving it to Infinite. Although i could be wrong, since Infinite does a really good job of marketing their product. But if i were making the decisions, i would run the renamed Originals as limited runs at about the pace they once did for DM. Sell them for marked up prices. You know the truly desperate DM fans will buy them up eventually and you still make the money with less molding time taken away from the main Innova line.

I dont disagree that the FD, PD2, etc are some great molds, but is the FD really different enough from the glut of neutral to understable fairway/control drivers Innova already produces. A renamed FD will not sell anywhere near as well as the real thing, at least not for some time. Look at the P2. Before the shortage last year, it was basically the best selling putter for a couple of years on Infinite (used this since the info is readily available). I would bet even last year, with the lack of P2 availability, it probably sold 10 times what the renamed P2s that Innova makes for themselves and Infinite (not an exact number just an educated guess). I would bet money the same would be true of a renamed FD. Nothing to do with quality of the mold, everything to do with it not being thrown by Simon and Eagle.

 

[pjhayes7]

Patent numbers on Innova made discs do not refer to individual molds. They reference the now expired patent on beveled edge discs (4568297). Newer Innova molds do not have patent number on them to my knowledge.

No, a mold cannot be patented exactly, but not duplicated either unless someone got the original mold pieces and reproduced or had the specs for the mold pieces (and that would be theft if anyone outside Innova did this).

So the point still stands that DM DOES NOT own the molds. They can try to have someone else reproduce the molds as closely as possible, but it will never be exactly the same. If the Originals line is discontinued, the only way you will ever see those discs again is if Innova decides to use them again

 

[soothsayer]

Yeah, I think rebranding as an Innova disc makes more sense instead of just giving it to Infinite. Although i could be wrong, since Infinite does a really good job of marketing their product. But if i were making the decisions, i would run the renamed Originals as limited runs at about the pace they once did for DM. Sell them for marked up prices. You know the truly desperate DM fans will buy them up eventually and you still make the money with less molding time taken away from the main Innova line.

I dont disagree that the FD, PD2, etc are some great molds, but is the FD really different enough from the glut of neutral to understable fairway/control drivers Innova already produces. A renamed FD will not sell anywhere near as well as the real thing, at least not for some time. Look at the P2. Before the shortage last year, it was basically the best selling putter for a couple of years on Infinite (used this since the info is readily available). I would bet even last year, with the lack of P2 availability, it probably sold 10 times what the renamed P2s that Innova makes for themselves and Infinite (not an exact number just an educated guess). I would bet money the same would be true of a renamed FD. Nothing to do with quality of the mold, everything to do with it not being thrown by Simon and Eagle.

Actually, according to Infinite, the Alpaca (rebranded P2) has been one of the top selling molds since it was released. Probably not quite p2 sales, but still. For fans of the FD, nothing else quite replaces it. Are there other molds that could replace it? Of course. Will it be the same? Nope. There is a reason the FD has been one of discmanias top selling discs forever.

 

[soothsayer]

No. Look closely at the tooling on discs...there are patents. If Discmania says Innova owns the molds, then they (Innova) have the patent on that design. Discmania would not be able to have Latitude64 make a mold of the same design. Close, but not the same. Then it further depends on who owns the design for the plastic blend. If Innova owns that also, then Discmania will never be able to have another company make an 'Original' as the mold and plastic blend are owned by Innova.

It does sound like Innova owns everything but the disc name. And that is most likely why Discmania has partnered with other companies and coming out with different plastics.

This is incorrect. Individual molds are not patented. The molds themselves are owned by Innova. If they were individually patented, there wouldnt be a million Teebird clones by every company out there (same with Firebirds, Destroyers, etc). They could have Lat64 recreate the FD, put a stamp on it called "FD" since they own that name, if they wanted to. It wouldnt be the EXACT mold that is in innovas factory, but with modern technology im sure they could get it damn close.

 

[ray1970]

Assuming they looked, felt, and flew the same I'd bag some opto FD's or classic blend P2's, or a less beefy gold line PD that flew like a beat in S-line right off the shelf. Just saying.

 

[pjhayes7]

Actually, according to Infinite, the Alpaca (rebranded P2) has been one of the top selling molds since it was released. Probably not quite p2 sales, but still. For fans of the FD, nothing else quite replaces it. Are there other molds that could replace it? Of course. Will it be the same? Nope. There is a reason the FD has been one of discmanias top selling discs forever.

I stand corrected. I missed it in the 2020 sales list. Obviously some of that is skewed since it is (i assume, although i am often mistaken about many things) the only place that sells Infinites line of discs, but still pretty good sales. I still stand by my argument that the players throwing have suck an effect on what sells, especially on the more casual/newer players who may not have their bag setup set in stone. Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up. And look at the drop off of the Nova and the Harp. Still pretty good sellers, but not close to what they did when Paul and Ricky threw them.

Good molds will find a way into people's bags eventually, no matter who throws them. But a top five player using them is far better at moving a mold off the shelves than just a quality mold alone.

 

[BillFleming]

Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up.

And Ricky doesn't throw the Pig (the normal name for the R-Pro Pig)....he throws the Wysocki Pig which is a flatter version of the R-Pro Pig and better for forehands. This is one of the issues of different versions of a disc having similar names and being referred to by the 'basic' name.

Discmania COULD have another company make FD's (or something else) with a similar mold and similar plastic...call it an FD and people might flock to buy it...but is it really an FD or is it just 'similar to an FD'?

 

[soothsayer]

I stand corrected. I missed it in the 2020 sales list. Obviously some of that is skewed since it is (i assume, although i am often mistaken about many things) the only place that sells Infinites line of discs, but still pretty good sales. I still stand by my argument that the players throwing have suck an effect on what sells, especially on the more casual/newer players who may not have their bag setup set in stone. Look at the effect Ricky has had on the Pig. That disc was a terrible seller until he took it up. And look at the drop off of the Nova and the Harp. Still pretty good sellers, but not close to what they did when Paul and Ricky threw them.

Good molds will find a way into people's bags eventually, no matter who throws them. But a top five player using them is far better at moving a mold off the shelves than just a quality mold alone.

I agree about the top players selling more discs. Side note, you can actually by infinite line discs at many of the top retailers as they have started wholesale sales (thats a weird way of saying it lol). OTB sold a ton of Alpacas once people realized it was basically a P2 and P2s were unavailable. Regardless, I don't think Innova will let those molds go to waste.

 

[soothsayer]

And Ricky doesn't throw the Pig (the normal name for the R-Pro Pig)....he throws the Wysocki Pig which is a flatter version of the R-Pro Pig and better for forehands. This is one of the issues of different versions of a disc having similar names and being referred to by the 'basic' name.

Discmania COULD have another company make FD's (or something else) with a similar mold and similar plastic...call it an FD and people might flock to buy it...but is it really an FD or is it just 'similar to an FD'?

I mean, if Innova was making it, and used the same plastic as they always used and it was branded as an Infinite Cleopatra or something weird like that, wouldnt it still be an FD? Like if it was exactly the same process, mold and materials?

Edit: I'm an idiot and read your post wrong. My bad. Clearly if Discmania had someone else make it it wouldnt be made by innova... I need to learn to read.

 

[BillFleming]

I mean, if Innova was making it, and used the same plastic as they always used and it was branded as an Infinite Cleopatra or something weird like that, wouldnt it still be an FD? Like if it was exactly the same process, mold and materials?

Edit: I'm an idiot and read your post wrong. My bad. Clearly if Discmania had someone else make it it wouldnt be made by innova... I need to learn to read.

Not an idiot....it happens. If I had a disc for every time I responded to a post that I had misread/misunderstood....I'd have a lot more discs.

It seems like the first part might already be happening (Innova made for Infinite and renamed).

The second part (Discmania reusing the name on discs made elsewhere) just won't be the same. Yes, people will buy them up thinking they are the same thing, but then realize it is different....word will get around and the sales will drop off. There will always be people who don't care what the disc is like as long as it is close to what they are familiar with.

I wouldn't be surprised if Discmania's big announcement was that they were bought out by someone else. But it might just be.....no more Originals, we've moved on.

 

[soothsayer]

Not an idiot....it happens. If I had a disc for every time I responded to a post that I had misread/misunderstood....I'd have a lot more discs.

It seems like the first part might already be happening (Innova made for Infinite and renamed).

The second part (Discmania reusing the name on discs made elsewhere) just won't be the same. Yes, people will buy them up thinking they are the same thing, but then realize it is different....word will get around and the sales will drop off. There will always be people who don't care what the disc is like as long as it is close to what they are familiar with.

I wouldn't be surprised if Discmania's big announcement was that they were bought out by someone else. But it might just be.....no more Originals, we've moved on.

PLOT TWIST: Discmania buys out Innova and cancels production on all Innova molds, dedicating 100% of production to Originals.

 

[tbird888]

My point is that they have had more than ample opportunity to insulate their company and not be nearly as dependent of the whims of others.

I think they really dropped the ball on reinvestment into their own infrastructure and they are paying a supreme price for that right now. What's happening now was likely avoidable if they had invested in becoming more independent.

I'm not faulting them for the pandemic - but there has certainly been availability and production issues from 2019 and prior that were never solved.

How could they insulate their company when their molds are made from Innova's mold pieces? Do you think Dave Dunipace is going to hand Jussi the CAD files to cut the lower wing pieces of the Firebird or Wraith or Aviar? Get real.

 

[Ahildy13]

How could they insulate their company when their molds are made from Innova's mold pieces? Do you think Dave Dunipace is going to hand Jussi the CAD files to cut the lower wing pieces of the Firebird or Wraith or Aviar? Get real.

This gives me some thoughts:
- We know Innova owns the molds, the solid metal pieces used to make the originals. DM could not purchase the physical pieces, because Innova uses them for other discs. What would it have cost for DM to pay for the CAD designs/have Innova cut a "2nd"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same, but making the change years ago might have gone smoother?
- Mold Endurance. As the molds are temperature/pressure cycled they are stressed, and can in theory change dimensionally over time. Could it be that some of the DM pieces are also the most popular Innova pieces, and they don't want the extra cycles on their molds?

 

[pjhayes7]

This gives me some thoughts:
- We know Innova owns the molds, the solid metal pieces used to make the originals. DM could not purchase the physical pieces, because Innova uses them for other discs. What would it have cost for DM to pay for the CAD designs/have Innova cut a "2nd"? Obviously it wouldn't be exactly the same, but making the change years ago might have gone smoother?
- Mold Endurance. As the molds are temperature/pressure cycled they are stressed, and can in theory change dimensionally over time. Could it be that some of the DM pieces are also the most popular Innova pieces, and they don't want the extra cycles on their molds?

Not that they dont want extra cycles on the molds. I am sure the mold pieces for their most popular have been replace multiple times. They don't want those valuable pieces out in the wild so someone could literally copy a firebird, wraith, etc. The peices for the dome part of the disc are probable much easier to duplicate than the valuable bottom and wing pieces that make a disc what it is. Think of the Doritos Locos Tacos at Taco Bell. Frito Lay would never just sell the formula for the flavor to Taco Bell but would gladly license the use of the Doritos nacho flavor.

Now if they had paid Innova to design and make completely unique molds that DM would then own, that would have been a completely different situation. I would hope that is what DM did with Latitude and Yikun and that they own those molds.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Such good discussion, but also tons of conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too. Continue. opcorn:

 

[pjhayes7]

Such good discussion, but also tons of conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too. Continue. opcorn:

What would anyone talk about ever if not for conjecture, hindsight, guesswork and plain incorrect information too? Obviously i am joking and apologize for any incorrect opinions i have presented as facts, as that was not my intent and also likely not the intent of most users here. The good thing about a forum like this is that there are those with much more actual knowledge who will actively correct misinformation and most people on here i believe are willing to accept that they are wrong and accept new information when it comes to facts.

But half the fun of these forums is sometimes wild and unfounded speculation. Luckily, we are talking about and activity where we throw pieces of plastic at stuff and hopefully no one is hurt by being completely misinformed. I have been away from this forum for about 2 years and i forgot how much i loved it.