Rail lines with Discs and thumb/wrist placements

[rhatton1]

Not going to have time for video today but have the office again tomorrow so will try then, basically though this picture stolen from all things disc golf today shows the setup pretty perfectly:

The power pocket is being loaded, just a tiny bit more forward motion before the lower arm chop has to happen. the shoulders are closed at this stage and this is kind of where the shoulder "Pause" is happening. There is no pause though in reality it is just a subtle slow down in the shoulder rotation which goes fast, slightly less fast, fast.

Once the lower arm can't go forward any more without chopping it all starts to open up and out as ZJ described above.

This picture is about where the abrupt directional change of the Beto rail line would start from.

Note also in the picture that the disc (mini in this case) is about 6" lower than the elbow which allows you to get deeper into the pocket before exploding out.

Look at how the wrist is curling in as well at this stage, his thumb is pointing back at about 5 oclock at this stage if not even more. It's curled back as a result of the forward momentum pulling it back, it's not precurled.

 

[Mocheez]

It's semantics again really, is it a pivot, is it a sling, is it the outer edge coming around? What's a satisfactory word to describe the motion? It's a second arc on top of the first.

For me the outer edge coming around is the Half hit, the sling/pivot/even more of the outeredge coming round as the thumb pushes and guides this motion is the Full Hit.

It's why the half hit feels like the disc is ripping (although less so than the slip) and the full hit feels more like you are pushing/guiding the disc out - you've pulled it into the second arc and then are just guiding it on its way.

I think he is trying to say that the disc doesn't spin loosely around the pinch point (or at least very little). The pivot happens when the fingers pull the outer edge around. He explains this with more detail in the "Myth of the Disc Pivot" thread... https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24903

 

[rhatton1]

This was the revelation for me this summer, rereading the myth of the disc pivot again, it was the sudden lightbulb moment, "oh, so I'm supposed to be pulling/guiding/pushing it through the pivot, not letting the pivot happen and rip" It was like I suddenly found another little bit at the hit to do if that makes sense and things like the thumb push (coin on the table drill) made sense at last. What was exciting for me in this thread was seeing a visual representation of it with that second arc on top of the first, I can't see how that arc can be created passively, it needs to be actively initiated with the wrist opening slightly and the thumb pushing forward towards 12.

It's changed the way I was trying to finish the shot. It's been superb on the approach game, with small motions giving laser straight approaches from 60' up to 360'.

Haven't had enough time to get out on the practice field though for longer bombs to really work on it. I've still got some bracing issues to work through on that side of things.

 

[rhatton1]

Great thread with regards to shoulders and taking the idea of the pause too literally.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25302

I think I will reword and go with the terminology ZJ suggests as it can be such a misleading term.

And i haven't done the video yet... I will, promise.

Edit * last post by Blake is pretty much how I have always looked at the use of the shoulders, the second turn pulling through the hit to help give extra juice. Some of the stuff Seabass has posted recently shows that this is definitely not true in all cases (GG for example). Frustratingly. Still, the shoulders on all motions are closed through to the power pocket and only start to open from the lower arm chop on at earliest - i suppose that's the similarity to look for rather than searching for the differences.

 

[zj1002]

Great thread with regards to shoulders and taking the idea of the pause too literally.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25302

I had no clue I wrote that on DGR. Nice find. Cool to see an old self thought ramble. That was when I was pretty deep into lessons and learning a lot about breaking down someones form. I used a lot of what I learned teaching people to make my throw more efficient. I rarely practiced, just got better by teaching.

 

[slowplastic]

This whole thumb "push" thing to go to a full hit...is it an "away" push towards the target on the plane of the shot...or is it an outwards motion along the arc of the throw/arm motion...or what?

To get this feeling is it occurring during the similar timing and motions of a more passive "half hit" type throw, are other fundamentals different? Basically I'm wondering if the half hit and full hit throws for people who feel this, are 95% the exact same until that fraction of time at/during/after the hit? Or do some body positions change slightly along the way to make this easier like when learning to snap in general?

 

[Mocheez]

This whole thumb "push" thing to go to a full hit...is it an "away" push towards the target on the plane of the shot...or is it an outwards motion along the arc of the throw/arm motion...or what?

To get this feeling is it occurring during the similar timing and motions of a more passive "half hit" type throw, are other fundamentals different? Basically I'm wondering if the half hit and full hit throws for people who feel this, are 95% the exact same until that fraction of time at/during/after the hit? Or do some body positions change slightly along the way to make this easier like when learning to snap in general?

Here is the thread that discuss thumb push...

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17581&hilit=thumb

 

[slowplastic]

Here is the thread that discuss thumb push...

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=17581&hilit=thumb

Thanks for the link, it's interesting how focusing on the thumb muscle gives a different feel to active wrist extension...at least in an exercise/drill setting. It's definitely easier for me to feel this with midrange or narrow fairway drivers than high speed/wide rim stuff. I'm looking forward to trying this on the field, but I bet it won't be an instant success. I think I still have something to gain for my snap still, it's unfortunate I don't know any local 450+ throwers to see what's happening, although I know there are a few around.

 

[Krinkncrank]

The page by Blake T linked above wasn't clear about which direction you push your thumb -- I'm guessing that it is in the direction of wrist extension, i.e., sideways? The term 'push' though implies forward, like flicking a bottle cap, which doesn't seem too applicable to the BH throw. Am I missing something?

 

[slowplastic]

The page by Blake T linked above wasn't clear about which direction you push your thumb -- I'm guessing that it is in the direction of wrist extension, i.e., sideways? The term 'push' though implies forward, like flicking a bottle cap, which doesn't seem too applicable to the BH throw. Am I missing something?

It wasn't extremely clear to me either...but what I did do was try to apply it outwards like with wrist extension. It feels like different muscles in my hand/wrist are being used when I think of it in terms of thumb rather than entire wrist. I don't know how it will work in a throw, but at least it's a different thing for me to try. Also with all of this talk of pulling through the apex I really think I've been having too loose of a grip in general.

 

[rhatton1]

Yep slow plastic nails it. It's a way of actively pulling/pushing through the pivot rather than letting it happen passively-it means you are pushing / pulling the disc through the second arc rather than letting it loosely pivot round your finger/thumb lock

 

[rhatton1]

Another similar known motion you could try is to turn a key.

Trace the rail line and as your hand gets to its furthest extension when the outer edge has to start coming around, make the motion of turning a key in the lock.

It seems intuitively like this should create some form of crazy OAT, but it doesn't, it just helps you turn the corner quicker, it keeps everything on the same plane as you turn the corner and gives a similar pushing forward and around feeling through the second arc as the thumb pushing a coin feeling does.

With both ideas try it in slow mo at home, if it feels like it might make your hit more powerful give it a go on the field, as always though start with as little motion as possible to allow it to happen so you don't lose it with too much speed going in.

 

[rhatton1]

Just read the DGR thread back again posted by Mocheez - I would have to agree I find this quite easy to feel with putters and Rocs, I can just about feel it to Tee birds, i lose the feeling completely on wider rimmed drivers than about speed 8 as my thumb goes to far into the middle of the flight plate.

 

[rhatton1]

The page by Blake T linked above wasn't clear about which direction you push your thumb -- I'm guessing that it is in the direction of wrist extension, i.e., sideways? The term 'push' though implies forward, like flicking a bottle cap, which doesn't seem too applicable to the BH throw. Am I missing something?

It's about the last 3.5 images of the below, so you are pushing forward as your hand comes around the first arc and that thumb push initiates the second smaller arc - thumb goes forward, arm/wrist pulls to the right:

 

[Krinkncrank]

Appreciate your detailed input rhatton!

It seems like the point of the thumb push is to try and squeeze every last amount of grip out until the last possible moment, the hypothetical 6:00 position

 

[rhatton1]

I'm still part expecting Sidewinder to come in and tell me I'm wrong .... Hopefully I'm not.

Just to be pedantic - I don't think you will ever hold on till 6 that would be symptomatic of a grip lock (disc would have to be firing to the right) The position as it finally leaves the hand is more like 4 maybe 4.30 (means discs movement is still forward but rotational movement has gone as far as it can go before discs movement would be off at an angle.)

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Not 6, but later for sure!

 

[Krinkncrank]

That's why I used the term 'hypothetical'

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

The more I learn, the more I wonder if I know anything at all.

Was doing the daily fieldwork just now.

Felt like I was throwing really well - getting just the right amount of shoulder into the pull around and throwing shots I was happy with.

Decided, hey... why not throw old Rich's wide rail? WHYYY NOT?! I mean, I don't typically throw wide rail, it's what I'd call, "potentially a hot mess" in my hands.

It dawns on me, that the shoulders might be aligned incorrectly in that model. They start way more closed, but the reference is aligned at the target, which is a little misleading.

Long story short, I get way more ejection from wide rail shots with less effort and zero shoulder involvement. Because you readjust where the arc is going to be in relation to your body, you're saying, "I'm going to make sure that I am going to be holding on at the end of the arc, because I'm moving the arc."

If I throw on a straight line, I'm not exactly in the optimum position to make sure I can hold onto the late arc. You have to squeeze REALLY hard and even still, you can end up just at 3:00.

Remapping the body in relation to the arc, you end up at 4:00 every time.

If you can add shoulder into the wide rail with an effective x-step, I have zero doubt that you get 500' of distance. Zero doubt.

It's absurd that I saw what I just saw, with no wrist loading, no hard squeeze, no real driving the hips through, no torsion... just changed the body's relation to the arc and held on a little later.

It's equal parts frustrating and exciting.

 

[slowplastic]

This got me thinking about a couple of pure anhyzers I have thrown in the past that felt better than normal...I got more extension, and the disc held onto my index finger a little longer than normal and I could tell a significant increase in velocity.

These happened when trying to throw up elevation, or over branches on anhyzers, the key being that I was trying to hit a higher apex but still on a mellow angle. This likely subconsciously made me throw with a wider arc to get my arm "out" more to get the disc up, which likely allowed me to hold on longer. One of these was a putter shot uphill so I have no idea how to map the distance, but another was a standstill anhyzer with a River for ~400', and I think up a few feet elevation too. Sigfinicant improvement over my normal anhyzer distance.

This goes with what HUB just posted, that the arc was likely different. I still think that if I can't hold on until the correct position on the disc at release, it's likely not just my grip strength, it's body positions that are tearing it from my hand. I'm really interested to get a chance to try to play around with arc/shoulders slightly differently, along with thinking about my grip and thumb push a bit. This is a lot of things to play around with, but I know I can get more distance from the snap still.