Reachback and turning away timing in the X Step.

[RowingBoats]

Backpedal is relative. In one sense, almost all distance competition competitors are backpedaling in some degree.

I think people should develop their own style and experiment and find what works. In my own journey I have found that my distance increased as I turned more. I give up some control but the gain in distance is substantial.

There is a lot of truth to the bolded text, for sure. I do not understand why experimentation would start at trying to emulate the absolutely most elite distance throwers in the sport though. These guys are eking out every shred of momentum they can, but they still channel it into 'the move'.

Citing 700-800 foot form to support 350 foot results just does not compute to me. If I can throw a mid-range from a standstill farther than you can throw a driver with a run-up, the only conclusion I can draw is that there is a fundamental loss of efficiency to explore. I am not saying this to get into an internet distance pissing match, pure distance is about the last thing I care about, but at some point results need to be seen for an argument to maintain any credibility.

 

[RoDeO]

There is a lot of truth to the bolded text, for sure. I do not understand why experimentation would start at trying to emulate the absolutely most elite distance throwers in the sport though. These guys are eking out every shred of momentum they can, but they still channel it into 'the move'.

Citing 700-800 foot form to support 350 foot results just does not compute to me. If I can throw a mid-range from a standstill farther than you can throw a driver with a run-up, the only conclusion I can draw is that there is a fundamental loss of efficiency to explore. I am not saying this to get into an internet distance pissing match, pure distance is about the last thing I care about, but at some point results need to be seen for an argument to maintain any credibility.

Time will certainly tell. Emphasis on form is half the equation. The other half, almost always overlooked, is the emphasis on power and leverage. Mechanical advantage only works with effort. In the top distance throwers U see them utilizing both the mechanical advantage of turning back more, and the effort, or muscle, required to throw far. Those two things must be addressed and experimented with in everyone's journey to improving distance without everyone stating misinformation on certain points.

 

[RowingBoats]

Time will certainly tell. Emphasis on form is half the equation. The other half, almost always overlooked, is the emphasis on power and leverage. Mechanical advantage only works with effort. In the top distance throwers U see them utilizing both the mechanical advantage of turning back more, and the effort, or muscle, required to throw far. Those two things must be addressed and experimented with in everyone's journey to improving distance without everyone stating misinformation on certain points.

This is why I probably come off more hostile than I intend to with you. You say things that actually send my brain into a state of utter perplexity.

What is form if it is not emphasis on leverage?

 

[RoDeO]

This is why I probably come off more hostile than I intend to with you. You say things that actually send my brain into a state of utter perplexity.

What is form if it is not emphasis on leverage?

Form is spoken of almost exclusively as something requiring no effort. They are definitely connected but generally people don't speak of them together. Leverage and effort/muscle are completely connected but everyone cries wolf when you talk about increasing the leverage for more distance. Turning back more is increasing the mechanical advantage and yet- people won't connect that as good form. Go figure. That's like saying mechanical advantage and form are not connected.

 

[RowingBoats]

Form is spoken of almost exclusively as something requiring no effort. They are definitely connected but generally people don't speak of them together. Leverage and effort/muscle are completely connected but everyone cries wolf when you talk about increasing the leverage for more distance. Turning back more is increasing the mechanical advantage and yet- people won't connect that as good form. Go figure. That's like saying mechanical advantage and form are not connected.

Again, absolutely what? You are the only one here that I have seen say something like 'just try harder'. Everyone else is discussing leverage almost exclusively. Having leverage and mechanical advantage is literally getting more force for less effort.

Just out of curiosity. If I can throw a Shark from a standstill 380', and you throw a distance driver 350' feet with a full x-step back-shuffle 360 hadouken, which swing implies greater leverage?

 

[bsammons]

This is actual nonsense.

Proper form maximizes leverage.

Proper form is practically impossible to nail down while exerting maximum effort.

Therefore, a disc golfer should slow down until fundamentals are correct, aka maximizing leverage, and then exert the effort in the right places and in the right direction.

Once proper form is nailed down, go nuts with the effort. Nobody here is saying Simon, GG, eagle and drew Gibson don't try. We're just saying in order to throw like them you have to correct your form before you try to maximally exert yourself, further strengthening poor muscle memory.

 

[bsammons]

As another note.
Leverage does not equal muscle usage.

Leverage is a byproduct of proper form.

Proper form maximizes leverage, which maximizes energy transfer to the disc and increased efficiency - increased efficiency will lead to your effort actually accomplishing what it should accomplish vs being wasted through poor conservation of momentum and improper mechanics.

 

[RowingBoats]

This is actual nonsense.

Proper form maximizes leverage.

Proper form is practically impossible to nail down while exerting maximum effort.

Therefore, a disc golfer should slow down until fundamentals are correct, aka maximizing leverage, and then exert the effort in the right places and in the right direction.

Once proper form is nailed down, go nuts with the effort. Nobody here is saying Simon, GG, eagle and drew Gibson don't try. We're just saying in order to throw like them you have to correct your form before you try to maximally exert yourself, further strengthening poor muscle memory.

This is a hypothetical curiosity I have had for a while pertaining to disc golf. So far, I cannot see any benefit to something I would call 'black-out exertion' with regards to the disc golf swing. To me, especially because I am not even remotely exerting myself physically to the maximum extent, it is easy to introduce effort levels that exceed my...mental model of the swing? There are speeds that I can swing where I experience real-time feedback that things are going correctly, and there are speeds that cause a 'black-out' of this feeling.

For myself, the primitive brain signal to the body of "TRY HARDER", applied to the disc golf swing, seems to result in a complete breakdown of everything that makes the swing work.

Pros certainly appear to be at or near maximum physical exertion on drives, but are they actually? Can a pro still induce this feeling of trying to hard on themselves? A detached concept of effort just seems like it can't even belong in a good swing.

This might be gibberish sounding, sorry lol.

 

[RoDeO]

Again, absolutely what? You are the only one here that I have seen say something like 'just try harder'. Everyone else is discussing leverage almost exclusively. Having leverage and mechanical advantage is literally getting more force for less effort.

Just out of curiosity. If I can throw a Shark from a standstill 380', and you throw a distance driver 350' feet with a full x-step back-shuffle 360 hadouken, which swing implies greater leverage?

Not really a fair question. How long have you been playing?

 

[RowingBoats]

Not really a fair question. How long have you been playing?

It is a fair question. If you put more energy into your movements, and get less of that applied to your disc, my time playing the sport does not factor into which of us is applying leverage more effectively.

My question was an attempt to confirm whether you understand what the word leverage means, because it doesn't seem like you do.

 

[RoDeO]

This is actual nonsense.

Proper form maximizes leverage.

Proper form is practically impossible to nail down while exerting maximum effort.

Therefore, a disc golfer should slow down until fundamentals are correct, aka maximizing leverage, and then exert the effort in the right places and in the right direction.

Once proper form is nailed down, go nuts with the effort. Nobody here is saying Simon, GG, eagle and drew Gibson don't try. We're just saying in order to throw like them you have to correct your form before you try to maximally exert yourself, further strengthening poor muscle memory.

Learning form and maximizing effort go hand in hand to learning distance the most efficient way. When I started I played a lot of putter rounds and finessing things. Problem was that I wasn't gaining distance very fast. So I went the other approach and started working exclusively with drivers and fieldwork and maximizing effort and started getting substantial gains. I also noticed that my control was improving drastically when I powered down. It changed my whole mentality. Since I started throwing all out in my garage over the past month not only is my form better but my distance is greater too. It's a myth that one cannot improve form by throwing all out.

Proper form does maximize "leverage potential". But without effort there is no maximizing the leverage. You must work on form and effort together. I'm not saying every shot, but one must consistantly be putting forth regular maximum effort in their fieldwork if they want to improve their distance. Power down, work on form, then power up and see how much effort you can exert and keep enough form to throw farther. No one has perfect form, not even the pros. Neither does one have perfect leverage or perfect applied effort.

 

[RoDeO]

It is a fair question. If you put more energy into your movements, and get less of that applied to your disc, my time playing the sport does not factor into which of us is applying leverage more effectively.

My question was an attempt to confirm whether you understand what the word leverage means, because it doesn't seem like you do.

A big part of throwing farther distance is how much time one has spent playing and conditioning fast twitch muscles. A person can have pretty good mechanics but yet lack the necessary correct muscle firings to throw far. It's one of the big reasons why it generally takes years of playing to throw over 450 feet. Distance in the disc golf throw requires fast muscle firings coupled with mechanical advantage (leverage).

A more fair question would be how long it would take an individual to go from start to "x" distance to really see how fast one is progressing against the average. So, for instance- if it takes 3 years for the average disc golfer to throw 450 feet and I get there in one year that would be more on the lines of maximizing leverage and effort potential. If it takes me 6 years then maybe it's not maximizing the potential due to a myriad of factors.

 

[RowingBoats]

Lurking beneath some heavy nonsense is a point here. I want to attempt to simplify what I was trying to say previously.

Exertion of more physical effort while maintaining proper form is absolutely part of throwing farther. The average human body is, with no training, capable of exerting a lot more effort than they can apply while maintaining correct balance, posture, and timing in the disc golf swing. Attempting to exert more effort and sacrificing balance, posture, and timing is not the correct way to progress. This will only cement bad habits.

Rodeo, can you name any other skill where your philosophy would apply? Would a snow board half-pipe rider learn a 180, 360, 720, or 1080 first? Would they try really hard without the correct technique to spin a full 1080, then fill in the gaps to work down to a 180? That is what you are saying, from my perspective.

 

[RoDeO]

Lurking beneath some heavy nonsense is a point here. I want to attempt to simplify what I was trying to say previously.

Exertion of more physical effort while maintaining proper form is absolutely part of throwing farther. The average human body is, with no training, capable of exerting a lot more effort than they can apply while maintaining correct balance, posture, and timing in the disc golf swing. Attempting to exert more effort and sacrificing balance, posture, and timing is not the correct way to progress. This will only cement bad habits.

Rodeo, can you name any other skill where your philosophy would apply? Would a snow board half-pipe rider learn a 180, 360, 720, or 1080 first? Would they try really hard without the correct technique to spin a full 1080, then fill in the gaps to work down to a 180? That is what you are saying, from my perspective.

A seeming disconnect for sure. That's not what I'm saying at all. I wasn't ever into snowboarding but I was a skater when younger and got pretty good. I wanted to Ollie higher than anyone else so I worked tirelessly at it and improved both form and maximum effort and it paid off because I progressed faster than all my peers and after a years time could almost Ollie onto a picnic table. I learned lots of tricks over the several years I played and I always worked on maximizing effort. Thus, my tricks were bigger, faster, smoother, etc. than my peers who started at the same time as me. Analogous to the disc golf throw- if I try harder and work more on form and maximizing effort than my peers then by rights, all things being equal, I should learn to maximize leverage faster and learn form faster and thus throw farther than my peers who start at the same time.

 

[RowingBoats]

A seeming disconnect for sure. That's not what I'm saying at all. I wasn't ever into snowboarding but I was a skater when younger and got pretty good. I wanted to Ollie higher than anyone else so I worked tirelessly at it and improved both form and maximum effort and it paid off because I progressed faster than all my peers and after a years time could almost Ollie onto a picnic table. I learned lots of tricks over the several years I played and I always worked on maximizing effort. Thus, my tricks were bigger, faster, smoother, etc. than my peers who started at the same time as me. Analogous to the disc golf throw- if I try harder and work more on form and maximizing effort than my peers then by rights, all things being equal, I should learn to maximize leverage faster and learn form faster and thus throw farther than my peers who start at the same time.

I am glad you brought up the skateboard ollie, because that is a good example. Like the disc golf swing, most people are capable of physically exerting enough force to get good results with no focused physical training. For the ollie, a person's maximum vertical jump height, followed by bringing the knees to the chest, is a good place to start to gauge their absolute upper limit of possible ollie height.

Almost any human being of average physical capability possesses, without any training, the physical capability of jumping, raising their knees, and having their feet be 12 inches off the ground. It is 100% balance, technique, and timing that prevents them from performing an ollie at this height.

Do you disagree with this basic idea?

 

[RoDeO]

I am glad you brought up the skateboard ollie, because that is a good example. Like the disc golf swing, most people are capable of physically exerting enough force to get good results with no focused physical training. For the ollie, a person's maximum vertical jump height, followed by bringing the knees to the chest, is a good place to start to gauge their absolute upper limit of possible ollie height.

Almost any human being of average physical capability possesses, without any training, the physical capability of jumping, raising their knees, and having their feet be 12 inches off the ground. It is 100% balance, technique, and timing that prevents them from performing an ollie at this height.

Do you disagree with this basic idea?

So thats like equivalent analogously to 300 feet in disc golf in a sense. I was doing ollies 2 feet high. And it does take physical effort to Ollie more than a 8 inches to foot high, it's not just technique. To get to two feet requires mostly physical fitness and quick muscle firings. Similar to being able to dunk, you have to build the right muscles to jump high.

 

[RowingBoats]

So thats like equivalent analogously to 300 feet in disc golf in a sense. I was doing ollies 2 feet high. And it does take physical effort to Ollie more than a 8 inches to foot high, it's not just technique. To get to two feet requires mostly physical fitness and quick muscle firings. Similar to being able to dunk, you have to build the right muscles to jump high.

Wow.

 

[SaROCaM]

A big part of throwing farther distance is how much time one has spent playing and conditioning fast twitch muscles.

You overstate the importance of fast twitch muscle.

Even if fast twitch muscle is that important, you are not going to build much fast twitch muscle through an endurance-based program of 100 pushups and riding a stationary bike every day.

Daily high volume throwing over a short time is not going to do it either. Who trains for explosiveness doing 100 reps for explosiveness in one session every day? If one is truly working in the required intensity range to train that modality, volume and frequency are reduced. Less reps, but all of them at high quality. Recovery days are needed.

Furthermore, aging leads to a loss of muscle mass of all fiber types. After a certain age, the battle is to maintain or slow down the decrease in muscle mass. Unless you started with virtually nothing, you aren't going to gain any substantial fast twitch muscle after a certain age.

Increasing mechanical advantage through improved form allows one to throw 450' with the same effort as 350' throwers. It is just like how using a longer pry bar can move the object that using a shorter pry bar couldn't, with the exact same force applied.

That doesn't mean don't exert effort; it means that high effort with a better force multiplier is better than high effort without.

 

[bsammons]

Wow.

It's like... main points are totally ignored. And then smaller points that aren't even fundamental to the entire post are dissected under an electron microscope with a diamond knife. I've never seen anything quite like it.

 

[RoDeO]

You overstate the importance of fast twitch muscle.

Even if fast twitch muscle is that important, you are not going to build much fast twitch muscle through an endurance-based program of 100 pushups and riding a stationary bike every day.

Daily high volume throwing over a short time is not going to do it either. Who trains for explosiveness doing 100 reps for explosiveness in one session every day? If one is truly working in the required intensity range to train that modality, volume and frequency are reduced. Less reps, but all of them at high quality. Recovery days are needed.

Furthermore, aging leads to a loss of muscle mass of all fiber types. After a certain age, the battle is to maintain or slow down the decrease in muscle mass. Unless you started with virtually nothing, you aren't going to gain any substantial fast twitch muscle after a certain age.

Increasing mechanical advantage through improved form allows one to throw 450' with the same effort as 350' throwers. It is just like how using a longer pry bar can move the object that using a shorter pry bar couldn't, with the exact same force applied.

That doesn't mean don't exert effort; it means that high effort with a better force multiplier is better than high effort without.

I guess I march to the beat of my own drum. It has always led to great results. I know for a fact that my workout of a 100 throws a day will net the results I am after. I've been doing this workout for a month now and I'm over 2,000 throws in of my goal of 10,000 before next spring. I've recorded myself almost daily to analyze my throw and see what I need to work on. I was hitting 375 feet this last fall before winter came in. My throw now is substantially stronger. I can show you the progress if you want to see. The biggest thing I've noticed in this past month is that the strength and speed is much improved. As such, my brace has gotten stronger to even out the increased pull strength. The more I throw the more I come to rely on a full and smooth and somewhat early turn into reachback. It's what I've found works the best and creates the correct leverage to really pull the disc through.

Anything I've ever done has been with that same intensity and it has always netted the desired results.