Snow in Rancho Cucamonga? (Innova Blizzard Technology)

[swel3041]

Fun coincidence...a good friend had also ordered some of these, also from Hero Discs with the cool stamps, also got them in the mail yesterday, and also had the urge to throw...I ran into him at hole 1. He had the Wraith, Katana, Teedevil, Destroyer, and Boss, with weights from 150-154g. My Katana and Wraith were the same color as his Katana and Wraith. In any case, I got to try them all.

My over all impression: Very nice! I was concentrating on making ultra-clean throws, I didn't ever grip it and rip it (need to go to a field). I had no problems getting any of these to 350' with very little effort. My buddy had some of his longest ever throws with the Wraith. The Boss and Destroyer both flew very over-stable, just like you'd expect these to fly when new in Champion plastic. The Teedevil flew straight at high speed, but became highly LSS as it slowed down (as much as the Boss and Destroyer). The Wraith and Katana were both very straight, the Wraith had a nice tight fade at the end of the flight, reliably coming back each time. Big skips from the Katana, but a gentle fade. The biggest advantage I noticed is the ability to get these discs very high in the air with very little effort. Good for steep uphill, or going over tree lines.

I will be very curious to see how these discs beat in over time. That will really show whether they share the advantage of Champion plastic.

did his wraith look like the one you posted above with the funny dome and puffed out wing?

 

[steven1]

mine (tdevil,wraith,desto,tana) all have the bubble dome. wish they were a little less dome. do you guys think this (blizzard) happened by accident when innova was trying to make light champ drivers, and they just put a marketing spin on it, as if they intended to do it? that's my theory. I love light drivers, and will be able to test them next week in orlando, with a report following.

 

[discspeed]

mine (tdevil,wraith,desto,tana) do you guys think this (blizzard) happened by accident when innova was trying to make light champ drivers, and they just put a marketing spin on it, as if they intended to do it? that's my theory.

I think the bubbles were done on purpose...Innova has not been able to make their faster drivers in light weights by conventional means, so I have no doubt they were tinkering around trying to figure something out. The marketing spin comes when they sell these prototypes for the same $$ as their actual production discs go for...passing on the R & D bill straight to us. This is fine with me though, I'm just happy to see them doing something new that could really end up benefiting DG as a whole. Hopefully they can get their processes down and start doing Blizzard production runs.

 

[x-out1]

Hopefully they can get their processes down and start doing Blizzard production runs.

where do you think the blems come from? if the production release is around the corner you would think that the blems are from that same run.

 

[discspeed]

Hopefully they can get their processes down and start doing Blizzard production runs.

where do you think the blems come from? if the production release is around the corner you would think that the blems are from that same run.

Good point...that is a very distinct possibility. They have done a lot of small run experimental stuff in the last couple of years though (wavy top Bosses, early XG discs, Bubble Bosses, etc) and sold it on DGV and now the factory store.

 

[Spinthrift]

where do you think the blems come from?

Likely from the run done for the Taiwan Championship Blizzard fundraiser discs. DGV is selling them for $15.95.

 

[steven1]

had to get out and throw these today. i have roughly 450' in me when things are good, fwiw. my findings:

katana- the farthest of the bunch when hit right. understable obviously, but with a clean release and a slight tailwind, these things went longest with a decent fade.

wraith- the "cleanest" flight of the bunch. more hss than the katana, and less low speed fade. probably the most usable of the bunch. almost as long as the katana due to it having less low speed fade.

destroyer- i won't say is was overstable, as i was in cold conditions at 8500 ft altitude, but it was hard to turn unless i forced it. massive low speed fade.

teedevil- slightly less stable hi speed and low speed vs. the destroyer.


no surprises, as my discs seemed to coincide with what i expected and with innova's ratings. when playing at hi altitude, i throw light dx destroyers and r-pro bosses for distance. these blizzard discs compare to those, but with a harsher low speed fade, which could help them come out of a turn better than dx/r-pro. I will try them more up at altitude (8500+) this summer, unless someone wants them and has yellow pd's (c, s, or p) 158-162, that they would trade me for them.

 

[JHern]

Both Wraiths had enormous domes. Both Katanas were relatively flat. So...if you're looking for less domey Katanas, get some from Hero Disc. Both of our's were 150g.

I honestly can't judge the Destroyer or Boss more without beating them in a bit. IMVHO, both of these discs reveal their character with age, their new versions are always vastly more over-stable than their beat/mature versions.

The bubbles are on purpose. This is what they mean by "blizzard." The idea is to make a Champion disc, but lighter, by adding bubbles. The discs

 

[Spinthrift]

Had a chance to throw my 158 and 155 Bliz Destroyers and two 150 Bliz Katanas, though I can only throw them FH pretty much from standstill until my leg heals from surgery. Most throws were 260-300ish. All four are super domey, with the Destroyers having zillions of tiny bubbles and the Katanas having hundreds of bigger bubbles. The Katanas are hyzer-flip machines with a whooooole lot of glide, perhaps the longest FH disc I've thrown. The Destroyers are very stable, even overstable. Pretty much a meathook on a 280' throw. The Destroyers were also thrown FH and BH by Whiz (990+ rated), who said they were more stable than his Star Destroyers. I'll be real interested in how they fly once they get some seasoning.

 

[swel3041]

Just got a katana and wraith (thanks steven) and noticed the difference in the bubbles. My katana also has larger bubbles while the wraith has way more super tiny bubbles. I wonder if this is intentional? The flight plate on the katana does feel a little more stiff but I am not sure if they are even supposed to have the same thickness of flight plate. As excited as I am about these I do kinda feel like innova just found a way to use a broken molding machine to generate business. lol!

 

[JHern]

The blem-ness of these discs is variable. It is difficult to find any flaw in the Katana. The Wraith has some deformity under the nose, but only on one side of the disc. The nose on the opposite side looks fine. It is almost as if the ring piece of the mold wasn't seated properly, and got slightly tweaked or bent out of shape.

Regarding the process, I've had some thoughts, and I think this process can be enlightening with regard to the mechanics of injection molding of discs. I imagine that they usually would press out any air bubbles that result from melting the pellets, before injection into the mold. In the Blizzard case, they manage to get air into it, but it is distributed in small bubbles, and they seem to have some sort of control on bubble sizes (the blems were experiments). Getting a frothy mixture of air and molten plastic with uniform small bubbles is probably very difficult to do just by mixing air and plastic pellets together. But, there is another way...I'm going to make a wild guess that maybe the bubbles are created by some sort of additive in the plastic itself that generates gases during injection (perhaps triggered by the decompression that occurs once the plastic enters the mold). For example, they could produce the plastic in a high pressure CO2 chamber, and the gases would dissolve into the plastic itself. This would produce a more uniform bubble distribution since the bubbles are exsolving internally from the plastic itself. The degree to which the bubbles are stretched (elliptical vs. spherical) is an indication of how far the bubbles were transported (stretched) in the injected plastic from the point where they initially exsolved (they should always begin spherical) and/or past the critical point where the plastic rheology is soft enough to relax deformed shapes back to spherical (owing to surface tension).

 

[swel3041]

The two I got from Steven were "non-blems" from the taiwan open and they look pretty good. Other than the obscene dome the rest seems to be properly formed. Also even with the high dome my wraith still doesnt have the thumbtrac-like area seen in the picture you posted. There are a lot more markings than you usually see on a new champ disc from the manufacturing process around the top and bottom of the rim, like they may be more difficult to pull out of the mold or something, but they are barely noticeable and wont be visable with a little more wear on them.

 

[JHern]

I think the pressure inside the plastic due to expansion of bubbles in the flight plate can explain the bubble-dome we see in a lot of these discs. The increased pressure makes the plastic want to expand radially outward, but it is confined around the outside by the rigid rim. Thus it bows upward.

 

[JHern]

I posted this as a question for Dave Dunipace in the PDGA forum, here is his response...

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1465611&postcount=12615

 

[swel3041]

So the final product will be nothing like what we are getting now? nice lol. I really didnt get much out of his response other than the production run will not have bubbles in the flight plate. Cool that he answered you though.

 

[JHern]

So...the production run will not have bubbles in the flight plate...

Yeah, flight plate bubbles=blems. Now we know why they called these first ones blems, which had been puzzling to me.

If all the bubbles are in the rim, and none in the flight plate, then the relative moment of inertia of the disc (i.e., the value normalized/divided by mass and radius squared) will be less than a solid disc, and they will probably turn more than the blems.

 

[x-out1]

So...the production run will not have bubbles in the flight plate...

Yeah, flight plate bubbles=blems. Now we know why they called these first ones blems, which had been puzzling to me.

If all the bubbles are in the rim, and none in the flight plate, then the relative moment of inertia of the disc (i.e., the value normalized/divided by mass and radius squared) will be less than a solid disc, and they will probably turn more than the blems.

lol at the speculation.

flight plate bubbles are going to be part of the production run. they were not the reason for considering them factory seconds.

the newer type mentioned on PDGA are just a modified version that will eventually make its way into production.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Threw a destroyer, those things are surprisingly stable. Way more stable than the 159 japan open champ destroyer I have.

 

[JHern]

So...the production run will not have bubbles in the flight plate...

Yeah, flight plate bubbles=blems. Now we know why they called these first ones blems, which had been puzzling to me.

If all the bubbles are in the rim, and none in the flight plate, then the relative moment of inertia of the disc (i.e., the value normalized/divided by mass and radius squared) will be less than a solid disc, and they will probably turn more than the blems.

lol at the speculation.

flight plate bubbles are going to be part of the production run. they were not the reason for considering them factory seconds.

the newer type mentioned on PDGA are just a modified version that will eventually make its way into production.

Speculation? Read Dave Dunipace's response...

...The molding has evolved into, what I think is an acceptable and marketable product that does not have bubbles in the flight plate, just the rim. We started with bubbles everywhere, but that often produced unacceptable visual results...

 

[swel3041]

He also says that the large domes are not due to bubbles in the plate but factors involved in controlling the bubbles, which sounds like a round about way of saying "it's the bubbles". At any rate I can see why they would have to do this to be able to market these effectively and maybe having more control of the flight plate shape will compensate for the change in weight distribution.