SuperWookie Form Thread

[SuperWookie]

For what SW is talking about, I'm just realizing this stuff too and experimenting with it.

But for starters, think of a baseball bat swing. Say you hit a belt high pitch. You don't swing the bat belt high the whole time even though that's a natural height...the bat comes down from the shoulders, hits the ball belt high, and finishes arcing up and around the shoulders.

Same thing in the disc golf throw. If you look at your sequence of images, SW's right/throwing elbow follows that purple line quite well along the forward swing. Then look at where it is in the follow through, it's arced up and around his body...not just continuing on the same "flat" plane the whole time. You can also see the shoulder tilt and how they are angled relative to the arm throughout the shot.

The red line is meant to show the path of the elbow from release to this point in follow through....sorry it's a little sloppy from this perspective. Maybe the arc should have been a little more U shaped rather than the upside down arc. Point is that the arc goes upward to here.

So if you go frame by frame through the SW screen shots, it goes like this as far as the arm/disc path from beginning to end: flat on the initial turn back, then the disc arm is tilted from left, down to the right, then his elbow actually goes down below parallel with the disc above it on the pull, then back to flat right before the hit, then still flat at the hit, then his arm path has a subtle tilt up from left to right on the follow thru. So it's actually changing a lot throughout the swing. It's not like it's some perfect tilted path like a bat would take in baseball or golf, like this image shows, it actually changes many times throughout the throw.

And hitting a ball with a bat or club is not the same as the disc golf swing. The disc is connected to your arm and hand. The bat/club is the only thing connected to you in a baseball swing. The ball is in space and you can come into it from any number of planes and angles to hit it. Whereas when you throw a disc, your arm and hand have to be on the path/plane you want the disc to come out? Right? So I'm not following how that is the same or correlates. Not saying you're wrong, I'm probably just not understanding something or a lot. But to my eye, and knowing all the stuff I know about a baseball, golf, tennis swing, I'm not seeing how they are the same here.

I'm really confused by a lot of this. I understand the baseball swing and the golf swing perfectly and very well. But I'm finding the disc golf swing not like it in some very key areas. Or at least I'm not understanding how they are so similar in those areas. The ball in golf and baseball is separate from my swing or bat/club. But the disc is connected to me in disc golf. So that is where I am really struggling to understand a lot of these concepts you guys are talking about. Sorry. Hopefully more explanation will help unlock this for me. I'm really really determined to understand this and then do it, but right now, I'm just drowning in some of these ideas, and then how to even accomplish them as they seem impossible.

Thanks

 

[RandyC]

Hmmm, that gif of Simon and many many others I've seen, not only does the disc get release flat or slight anhyzer, but the body is mostly or fully upright. Look at that gif of Simon, he's just about completely upright or even tilted back right before he throws it. Same with SW in his throw. SW is ever so slightly tilted forward like you say, but not more than 5-10* at the most, but his swing path is mostly flat, or very close. His arm does go up a little in the follow thu, but it's still swinging around mostly on the same swing plane/ he had at the start and during the hit.

But were splitting hairs here. The concept I'm trying to understand still is how and why SW shows a much more tilted swing plane in his videos and during the drills, but then when he throws, it's much more flat and around? I'm trying to understand all of this, so I can learn how to throw better, and right now, I'm not understanding. There is no explanation of why and how this works. I'm just not understanding AT ALL, how someone can have a tilted spine axis, that is tilted over 30-45* with their arm on the same axis, and then throw it flat. It makes absolutely no sense. You would have to have your arm on the same axis you want the disc to fly, correct? You can't bend your wrist UP while you're arm and spine is pointed down.

So in this crude diagram below I drew really quick, the top two images are what you are purporting happens? But in reality, the bottom pictures is what would happen. But I don't see how it's possible? How can you swing your arm tilted, and yet have the disc come out flat if your spine and arm are on a tilted axis the entire time and released with the arm pointing down like the two images on the left show? You would have to contort your wrist into something horrible to get a flat release if your arm path and spine were tilted like this \. Can you guys explain this please as I have no idea how what is going on here. I'm sure I'm not understanding something critical here, but to my eyes, this idea and the reality of what I'm seeing don't match up.

You are not exactly throwing with a straight arm. When you are tilted and bend your elbow you can make a flatish swing, you can easily move your lower arm on a table when you are tilted. Like you said Simon is throwing an turnover or a slight anhyzer shot, thus he is not as bent.

 

[SuperWookie]

So I just read this and watched this quick little video someone posted over on Jet57's form review and it was once again, something I've never seen, never read, and yet it unlocks SOO much for me mentally! The idea that my arm is supposed to sort of be completely limp, and only holding the elbow up and disc up, and not swinging is SOO hard to do. It's just about impossible. In baseball, hockey, tennis, golf, etc even though your body does a large portion of the work, your arms still are very important and have a lot to do with the throw or hit. But in disc golf, it seems like they are supposed to do almost nothing. But watching video after video of pros throw, it does not appear that way. It looks like they are CRANKING on the disc with their arm, even though their body apparently does the majority of the work?

But this video that RandyC posted makes ALL sorts of sense now as far as what my arm should be doing in the swing!!! And going on this thought pattern, can you say what percentage do you think/feel your arm is doing as far as TRYING in the swing? Meaning, what % of a max throw would you guess is your body, and what % is your arm? Is it all body and completely limp arm the whole time? Or is the arm mostly limp, but definitely firing throw hard, right when the disc bounces off your chest? Or what? I think this simple idea is one major key that is holding me back and that I have never learned about anywhere.

Also, do you think that having your nose over your toes balance/positioning is SUPER critical to max distance, or is it just helpful? When I look at my throws, I'm not quite over my toes with my nose, like SW or a pro would be. How much distance is lost by not having that position?

And one other thing, when watching this video of Simon or basically anyone really good, I see them plant into their lead foot, and then spin the toe around almost immediately. Is that necessary? Or is that just to relieve tension on their ankle/knee? And when watching him or others plant their foot, sometimes it's toe - heel, other times it's basically just the whole foot right away. So how important is it to plant toe - heel, or close to it? Like what is the downside to planting heel first? Will I see huge distance loss or not? And will I see huge distance and accuracy gains by coming down on my toes first and then "crushing the can" as SW says? Or is it a minor issue? And I'm also not sure how hard I should be coming down into my plant foot? Is it a softer plant and weight distribution? Or is your plant foot crashing hard into the ground when transitioning forward into the plant foot? It looks like Simon usually violently slams his lead leg from back to forward very fast and with a lot of force stamping into the ground. And he throws SUPER far. So just wondering if that is a good thing or not, as it seems like a rapid weight transfer from the back to the front would be a huge part of gaining speed and power to transfer to the disc.



Thanks guys

Tense tense tense and you are pulling yourself out of balance. Try this one out let´s call it one leg slap drill.

Here are the key notes. Touch the middle of your chest, where it feels comfortable to you. (This is the so called power pocket).

Open your arm, do not pull or yank, its an immovable lever, open it. That is your full extension. Same goes for the reachback or backswing. Start bouncing your hand off from your chest, back and forth (Start very slow, balance is the key). When you find balance you can start speeding it up and eventually it will start to feel like one motion.

 

[SuperWookie]

Not sure why those videos are not showing?! Here is the video of Simon I'm talking about. When he throws the second of the 3 discs throughout the video. It's just insane how easily he can RIP on that thing with just one step forward. HOW does he do that?!?!

Simon Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFs7howlF7E&list=LLH2GnqSks7_h0CClGQQKYlw&index=9&t=0s

One Leg Slap Drill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtB0MuGfhnw

 

[sidewinder22]

Would you ever land from a jump on your heels?

IMO you want to land on the toes first because it engages the butt muscles which will help protect the hip and back. Hyzer/nose over toes is a much more natural/athletic position to be in and resist gravity and G-forces pulling on your body.

People will pivot on the foot in different ways depending on the dynamics of the shot. They aren't trying to pivot, it just happens from that inertia burst pulling your center of gravity thru when you are balanced and getting a big whip.



My arm is just a pendulum whip. Things will go from loose to tight as you approach the hit! You have to tighten as you speed up because the disc's inertia is pulling away from you. Brace for that impact of the hit about to send a blow back of energy back into your arm/body. If you are loose at the hit, you will hurt yourself by having a joint in an unstable position.



Note how the body is moving forward throughout the swing and changing angles. Also much harder to swing a bat or club two handed which severely limits the range of motion of the arms. Also the fact that they are trying to hit something small rather than throwing something attached to one arm like a pitcher.

 

[SuperWookie]

Would you ever land from a jump on your heels?

IMO you want to land on the toes first because it engages the butt muscles which will help protect the hip and back. Hyzer/nose over toes is a much more natural/athletic position to be in and resist gravity and G-forces pulling on your body.

Fair enough. Although I don't notice any difference really when I land on my toes then bring the heel down vs landing flat on my foot as of yet. It all produces the same distance and accuracy result. That's why I asked. I know landing on my toes puts me in a more athletic position, but was just curious if it had anything to do with distance or accuracy?


People will pivot on the foot in different ways depending on the dynamics of the shot. They aren't trying to pivot, it just happens from that inertia burst pulling your center of gravity thru when you are balanced and getting a big whip.

Same goes here. I can throw it super hard or medium, and I CHOOSE if I let me toe spin around and pivot, or if I stay posted up on my slightly closed front foot. I don't feel any pain or strain if I don't allow my front foot to pivot around as of yet. Of course, that may change in the future when I learn to throw much harder? But in golf, you don't spin your front foot out and if you hit it hard, then you are producing a TON of force. So I'm confused as to why the front foot spins out? Same in baseball. Most players plant foot really locks into the ground at impact and even rolls over a bit onto the outside of their foot. And they too are producing TONS of force. Same in tennis. Same in hockey. It seems like Disc Golf is the only sport that players let their front foot spin out right at impact or the split second after they have released. So once again, just curious. So far, when I let my foot plant and stay or spin out, I get the same result. So just wondering if there is any leverage/distance gained from letting my foot spin out or stay planted?


My arm is just a pendulum whip. Things will go from loose to tight as you approach the hit! You have to tighten as you speed up because the disc's inertia is pulling away from you. Brace for that impact of the hit about to send a blow back of energy back into your arm/body. If you are loose at the hit, you will hurt yourself by having a joint in an unstable position.

Yeah, I understand this. Still just not totally understanding how to do it. I can swing my arm with my body only and really whip it, and really get that outside, then inside bounce off my chest, then whip out reverse K shape feeling! But put the disc in my hand, and most of that goes away instantly. And that is even with a super loose grip that is barely holding the disc and then pinching down at the hit.

What I'm noticing, is that a lot of the videos or ideas that you guys are telling me about, I already know in theory of them, or that I need to do them. That isn't the issue. Some of those things I don't know, and it's good to be made aware of them. But for the most part, I'd say I'm struggling the most with HOW to do these weird moves that are unlike other sports. There may be some similarities, but some of them are quite a bit different and VERY foreign and hard to actually DO. Not even sure how to proceed as I've watched all the videos and read so much, and yet certain things are just not getting any better, and I still can't feel or do certain things at all.

One question I do have for you and everyone else is once again another contradictory idea, but in reality is different. So I see you guys helping Jet57 a bunch, and just read this part of the thread this morning about how at address his balance and positioning is good, but then when he throws, he's too far behind. This photo is what I'm referrencing:

So you guys are telling Jet57, that he's "Jammed Up" with his hip over his lead leg. And that his center of gravity should be out over his front leg? Which would mean he's going to tip over. But to me, he looks amazing and exactly like a great golf swing, hockey slap shot, or tennis back hand. He's posted up onto his lead leg in a nice straight line and looks powerful. So can you explain why this is "bad" and what you mean by "jammed up"? And then if you look at these photos of Simon or Eagle they are MOST definitely not over their front leg. And in fact are way behind their front leg in a very odd V shape with their body. So can you also explain that as well, and why they aren't over their front leg or even flat with their front leg? But yet, you guys keep telling Jet57 and all the rest of us, that we need to have the center of our spine inline with our front leg, which means we're over our front leg and tipping over? I hope you can see how this all seems very confusing and contradictory?

And once again, thanks :thmbup:

 

[Mocheez]

So you guys are telling Jet57, that he's "Jammed Up" with his hip over his lead leg. And that his center of gravity should be out over his front leg? Which would mean he's going to tip over. But to me, he looks amazing and exactly like a great golf swing, hockey slap shot, or tennis back hand. He's posted up onto his lead leg in a nice straight line and looks powerful. So can you explain why this is "bad" and what you mean by "jammed up"? And then if you look at these photos of Simon or Eagle they are MOST definitely not over their front leg. And in fact are way behind their front leg in a very odd V shape with their body. So can you also explain that as well, and why they aren't over their front leg or even flat with their front leg? But yet, you guys keep telling Jet57 and all the rest of us, that we need to have the center of our spine inline with our front leg, which means we're over our front leg and tipping over? I hope you can see how this all seems very confusing and contradictory?

You have to think of dynamic balance. Eagle and Simon are throwing 80 mph and are imparting a great amount of force into the ground. The front leg has to be braced against the ground at that angle in order to remain balanced (think of a motorcycle going around a curve at 80mph).

The center of rotation (between the shoulders) should be above the front hip. If you draw a line from the midpoint of the shoulders down to the front hip, Eagle and Simon's line is vertical (or slightly forward). Jet's is angled back.

Most new players have their rotation behind the front hip which naturally puts their swing at an upward angle but then try to throw flat which f's up their swing plane.

 

[SuperWookie]

You have to think of dynamic balance. Eagle and Simon are throwing 80 mph and are imparting a great amount of force into the ground. The front leg has to be braced against the ground at that angle in order to remain balanced (think of a motorcycle going around a curve at 80mph).

The center of rotation (between the shoulders) should be above the front hip. If you draw a line from the midpoint of the shoulders down to the front hip, Eagle and Simon's line is vertical (or slightly forward). Jet's is angled back.

Most new players have their rotation behind the front hip which naturally puts their swing at an upward angle but then try to throw flat which f's up their swing plane.

Yeah, that's what I thought. Just wanted to see what you guys said. I know from experience in other sports, that the reason they are not lined up like SW and SP want Jet57 to be (spine over front leg), is because of the extreme speed Simon/Eagle are creating and how their body is moving fairly quickly into their plant leg. They would completely tip over immediately if they came into that hit with the speed they have. So you just confirmed what I thought.

And then I can extrapolate: that with a slower one leg throw to: you need to have the center of your body (between your shoulders) over your front leg, because the swing speed and momentum produced is much less? And you won't tip over from that slower swing speed and momentum? Correct?

 

[slowplastic]

Also if you watch the video that that still frame is taken from, you'll see that the right shoulder stays on that red line as the arm unwinds and also as the spine moves around that red line, farther toward the target.

Simon and Eagle have their spine balanced and as their rotational axis. Their right shoulder will keep turning around their spine to pull the arm, so in their still frame/image the red line would be up through their upper spine and their right shoulder is farther forward than the brace.

 

[UhhNegative]

You also need to be careful when you are comparing baseball/golf with disc golf. The swing center is different when you are using one hand vs two.

 

[SuperWookie]

Also if you watch the video that that still frame is taken from, you'll see that the right shoulder stays on that red line as the arm unwinds and also as the spine moves around that red line, farther toward the target.

Simon and Eagle have their spine balanced and as their rotational axis. Their right shoulder will keep turning around their spine to pull the arm, so in their still frame/image the red line would be up through their upper spine and their right shoulder is farther forward than the brace.

Agreed

 

[SuperWookie]

You also need to be careful when you are comparing baseball/golf with disc golf. The swing center is different when you are using one hand vs two.

I know that. But everyone on here keeps posting TONS of videos of golfers and baseball players and trying to make connections between the swings. As well as just talking about how similar they are. Most people on here teaching us, usually are using some form of golf or baseball reference to explain a feeling or idea in the disc golf swing. So that is what is really confusing. I know they're different.

I have an excellent golf, baseball, tennis, hockey swing/throw/shot. I know them VERY well. And that is part of the problem. I've been doing them so long and have these naturally ingrained patterns in my body, that are SO hard to stop doing. As they are the "right" way to do those other sports. But not in disc golf. And then I'm trying to get my arm to be the club or bat or whatever with NO weight in my hand, and it's just so foreign and odd feeling. And all of this with one arm, not two. AND it's all from the left side, not the right. So it can be extremely confusing sometimes, and other times, I totally get it.

But like I've mentioned before, I'm not finding as much in the way of information on HOW to do these things. There is tons of info on WHAT to do and WHY. So it's very slow progress as there are only a small amount of people on this forum that are good or expert throwers AND are willing to help us out. So it's frustrating to say the least. Then you add in the fact we're all trying to learn this way, throw written word and watching videos. It's not very conducive to learning and it takes forever to learn something that in real life would literally take 10 secs to discuss and then accomplish.

But overall, I'm just not getting the "keys" to this. I know I'll be able to do it and do it really well at some point. But just like almost everyone else out there, it's taking forever and is painstakingly slow in progression. It did NOT take this long and this much work to get better at ANY sport I've played when I actually tried to get better and got expert correct advice. So that is what is probably the most frustrating and annoying thing. This is such an underground sport still, and there is VERY little in the way of expert advice, knowledge and understanding of the swing/throw. Whereas with golf, tennis, hockey, baseball, etc, there millions of people that can help you. Millions of books, magazines, videos, coaches etc to help you learn the swing. Millions of devices to use to feel certain things and do things correctly. There is almost nothing like that yet for Disc Golf and I don't imagine there will be ever or anytime soon. As there is no money involved in the sport. Now if in 5-50 years, Disc Golf gets WAY bigger and tons of money starts moving hands, then you can bet, all of a sudden, these expert Disc Golfers that don't help spread knowledge currently, will ALL be making videos, and training devices and classes to help us get better. Because then there will be monetary rewards for their help. But as it stands, we have about 3-5 people total that are kind enough to take tons of time out of their days to help all of us beginners and people struggling to understand this crazy swing. And if something doesn't click for us from their style of coaching, then you're out of luck and not making much progress. So it's just super super frustrating. But also, I'm very thankful for SW22, SP, HUB and some of the other people that chime in from time to time to help out. Without them and their help, most of us would be throwing 200' hyzer bombs for the rest of the time, hahaha.

I'm actually meeting with a local pro on Friday to see if he can help me or not. I have no idea if he has expert throwing skills or knowledge of the swing? But we'll see. Even if he can't help as much as I want, just having him watch me throw and getting his feedback and some tips at the very least will help. I'm going to wait until I meet with him before I come back here and post more videos of my throws. Thanks again for the help guys

 

[UhhNegative]

Hey, I feel your pain. I tried to quit disc golf completely before, now I'm switching to right-handed. They say golf is a good walk spoiled, well disc golf is no different. I tend to agree that biochemically the disc golf swing is harder than golf/baseball/whatever swinging sport. To be fair, the people you mentioned are super active on here.

And let's be real, the explosion in popularity of golf produced both good teachers/information and terrible misinformation. But I do get your point.

Depending on where you live, you might be able to convince one of the experts in here to meet you for a lesson. I've thought about going up to see sidewinder before.

 

[deyo7]

Can you address/explain what you mean by my arm is collapsing almost immediately? In the photos I posted from my most recent field work, it looks like my upper arm is in fact out away from my chest the entire time. And around 90* or larger. So wouldn't that mean it's not collapsed? It would help a lot if you could explain what you mean and show me some examples please. Thanks so much

So if you look at this video, pause it at around 5 seconds in your backswing. Do you see how your upper arm to chest angle is maybe at 60-70 degrees? https://vimeo.com/343778310

Compare this to Barry Shultz below. Note how during his backswing it appears to never collapse < 120 degrees or so. That's what I was referring to in an above post in terms of resisting the collapse. Try pumping forward then resisting during the backswing. I made a quick markup of upper arm to chest angle, attached. Hope it helps.

 

[UhhNegative]

Yeah getting past the rounding will do wonders for you. I threw with rounding for a couple of years, and while I could throw 350-375 this way, it required a lot of effort and was inconsistent.

Best way to learn the feeling? Over-correct and do super wide reachbacks like Eric Oakley, Barry Shultz, Nate Doss. Feel that elbow angle closing and then extending instead of just extending the whole swing. It feels weird to trust at first until you realize that if you keep the lower arm loose, the disc ends up back at the power pocket anyway. More like a sling/ball on a string than a "drag around body and release" that rounding produces.

 

[SuperWookie]

So if you look at this video, pause it at around 5 seconds in your backswing. Do you see how your upper arm to chest angle is maybe at 60-70 degrees? https://vimeo.com/343778310

Compare this to Barry Shultz below. Note how during his backswing it appears to never collapse < 120 degrees or so. That's what I was referring to in an above post in terms of resisting the collapse. Try pumping forward then resisting during the backswing. I made a quick markup of upper arm to chest angle, attached. Hope it helps.

I do see what you mean, that my arm is around 90* give or take where you are talking about, and that this Barry Shultz has a HUGE gap from his upper arm to chest. But I've never even seen that type of throwing before. It looks REALLY weird and not very natural or like it can easily produce good distance with fluidity and ease.

I watch for form, almost exclusively Simon, Eagle, and Paul. I've seen other guys throw obviously, but as far as studying a throw type, Simon and Eagle stick out like a sore thumb to me. But regardless who I watch, I was under the assumption that all that mattered was to get to the power pocket position with your elbow leading and the disc near the center of your chest before you then actually try to extend your forearm and sling it out, with your hand still on the outside of the disc? Same as you are showing this gif/image of Barry with a HUGE arm to chest angle, I can show you lots of other videos/clips of people who throw that don't have that huge arm to chest angle. Like this photo of Simon below. He's maybe around 100* right when the disc gets it's farthest and he starts to rip on it. So it leads me to believe that there are MANY ways to throw the disc far and straight. And that I don't HAVE to have a huge arm to chest angle? But.... Is there a minimum arm to chest angle that is 100% known to be the smallest angle you can have to throw really far and well?

But... I think I see the point you're trying to make. You want me to just TRY keeping a huge arm angle and feeling how that goes for awhile, because it's better to keep a wide arm angle then to let my arm collapse into my chest. Which I'm not doing anymore, but was. And that it will help me to not let my arm get as close to my chest once I go back to a more normal back swing? Is that about right? Thanks

 

[SuperWookie]

Yeah getting past the rounding will do wonders for you. I threw with rounding for a couple of years, and while I could throw 350-375 this way, it required a lot of effort and was inconsistent.

Best way to learn the feeling? Over-correct and do super wide reachbacks like Eric Oakley, Barry Shultz, Nate Doss. Feel that elbow angle closing and then extending instead of just extending the whole swing. It feels weird to trust at first until you realize that if you keep the lower arm loose, the disc ends up back at the power pocket anyway. More like a sling/ball on a string than a "drag around body and release" that rounding produces.

Definitely will start working on this idea this week/end. And keep at it until I feel something good and see results. Thanks for the idea! Also going to get a huge heavy sledge from a friend to add to my hammers, so I can really work on that feeling of how to swing something heavy, throw it straight and far as well as really feel the brace I need to create in order to throw it well and keep good balance. I can easily throw the hammer well right now, but it's not translating to the disc yet. I throw my hammers for 5-10 mins and then put a disc in my hand and the feeling disappears instantly. This feeling and ability to do this is definitely going to take me WAY longer than most I fear. My golf swing is so ingrained into my brain and body, and like I mentioned a long time ago, I even had trouble with the gold swing until I started adding lots of lead tape to my clubs so I could actually feel the clubhead much better and finally let gravity do it's work and create that lag. So I even struggled with a gold club!!! So you can imagine how hard this is going to be with a little 175g disc

But I'll get out there and try it and keep working on it! Thanks

 

[UhhNegative]

If you treat your arm as the club, you've actually got a lot of weight to feel with! The "weight" should be from shoulder down to disc. Golf is an easier swing because its going with gravity and two handed. Throwing high hyzers can give a similar swing/feeling.



The fixed hinge is analogous to your shoulder. The moving hinge is your elbow. Think about the arm as a ball on a string attached to your shoulder and swing with that in mind.

 

[SuperWookie]

If you treat your arm as the club, you've actually got a lot of weight to feel with! The "weight" should be from shoulder down to disc.

Yeah, that sounds "real" easy to do in theory. But in reality it's not at all, haha.

 

[UhhNegative]

Yeah, that sounds "real" easy to do in theory. But in reality it's not at all, haha.

It's true. I've been studying this stuff for a couple years and only now is that part making sense to me.

Just let your whole arm go limp and go crazy with your torso: spin around like a crazy man and see what happens to your arm! It will be wildly swinging and automatically hinge in and out at the elbow. If you go wild enough you can slap yourself in the chest without using any muscles in your arm. The throw is controlling that motion and adding to it.

SW22 can explain how Simon throws. Some of the top throwers do things that are not easy to replicate and are more advanced moves. Like Paul does this "shoulder spring" thing that I don't understand but SW22 will know.