How Can We Minimize 'Flukey Rollaways'?

[1978]

My roll aways from layups is as great as roll aways from missed putts. You just never know when that disc is going to pop up and roll.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Also the idea that the player who hit the tray had a better shot is nonsense. A low putt has zero chance to go in. He never gave it a chance. Somebody who air mails it completely at least had the hieght to give it a go. A front rim banger isthe worst possible miss

^This exactly.



Also, I'll add that your "luck" is what you make it.

 

[DavidSauls]

Perhaps a better complaint is when drives land close to a basket, and take a wild roll. Usually that's a good shot, and not a decision to the player to take a risk.

That said, I still love them. I'm admittedly biased---2 of the 3 courses I play the most are loaded will "fast greens" (and otherwise dangerous ones), including the course I began on, and the course I've built.

 

[simpletwist]

It occurs to me that in another thread it was discussed that putting was too easy. Now we want to make it less of a risk?

There are so many things that could improve courses, leave those tough placements be. I've seen some horrible rollaways on almost level ground.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Preventing punitive roll-aways has similar logic as the removal of the permanent 2 meter penalty. Unless the penalty is consistently applied it leaves an unnecessary and non-competitive luck factor in the game. Missing a putt that results in a roll-away is not bad" enough to deserve an extra throw penalty by rolling so far away. It should be designed more like a sand trap in ball golf where a player still has the chance to save the penalty.

It's well known in many games and sports that the lower your skill level, the more likely you'll prefer lucky elements in the game and we certainly have them among the posters including myself these days. However as game designers, when we discover lucky elements that CAN be reduced in a game designed to be executed skillfully versus random luck like roulette, it should be done IF the budget is there to do it. There will still be enough lucky elements in the game that cannot be reduced.

 

[grotto]

Putting at baskets that are on or near slopes adds challenge and creativity to the game, but it injects an element of randomness. I'd like to see small barriers erected strategically around sloped greens to knock down rollaways and minimize their punishing effect.

Making greens more uniform, i.e. removing fallen branches and large tufts of weeds, covering exposed roots and correcting irregularities in the landing area can also minimize flukey rollaways.

Any other ideas?

I hear a lot of people say "rollaways are part of the game". They certainly are, but they shouldn't be if you believe disc golf should be a game of skill rather than chance.

Any other ideas? Yes! Play the basket for what it is. Use a softer putter, play it safe or commit to the risk reward. Rollaways are part of the game, don't hyzer putt and miss.

Ball golf may have bunkers, but how many times have you seen a backspin hit a green and roll into the water? Should we just put inflatable 10 meter air mattresses or sand pits around the greens so we don't have to worry?

I stopped putting with KC Aviars because to me, they're the rollaway king.

 

[DavidSauls]

Preventing punitive roll-aways has similar logic as the removal of the permanent 2 meter penalty. Unless the penalty is consistently applied it leaves an unnecessary and non-competitive luck factor in the game. Missing a putt that results in a roll-away is not bad" enough to deserve an extra throw penalty by rolling so far away. It should be designed more like a sand trap in ball golf where a player still has the chance to save the penalty.

Allowing the 2-meter rule at the TD's discretion allows it to be used where appropriate.

Allowing a rollaway green at the designer's discretion allows it to be used where appropriate.

One problem with the universal 2-meter rule was that it applied to trees that would catch discs rarely enough that it wouldn't affect the player's decisions---but often enough to be deemed unfair. A basket on a rollaway green always affects the player's decisions.

 

[DavidSauls]

Making greens more uniform, i.e. removing fallen branches and large tufts of weeds, covering exposed roots and correcting irregularities in the landing area can also minimize flukey rollaways.

Despite my embrace of rollaway greens, I definitely agree with this part. I know of a course with a number of such greens, with rocks and roots so that even a careful layup may roll, and often a well-placed drive.

Much better to have a surface where, if you land flat and correctly, you can almost completely avoid rolls; and even missed putts that fall of the basket have a better chance of staying.

 

[TAFL]

Also the idea that the player who hit the tray had a better shot is nonsense. A low putt has zero chance to go in. He never gave it a chance. Somebody who air mails it completely at least had the hieght to give it a go. A front rim banger isthe worst possible miss

And the guy who airmailed it never gave it a chance to go in, either leaving it short or wide to the side. A shot off the intended line has zero chance to go in.

 

[Steve West]

If disc golf were ONLY a game of skill, I would want to eliminate all roll-aways.

However, disc golf is a game of skill and strategy. If there is a punishment (even if it far exceeds the crime), you can choose not to come close to committing that crime. Or, you can choose to take the risk to gain a throw or two.

There is more than one way to putt, and some of them have a lower chance of roll-aways. Learning those methods is increasing your skill so you have the tools to make the right strategic choices.

 

[DavidSauls]

If disc golf were ONLY a game of skill, I would want to eliminate all roll-aways.

However, disc golf is a game of skill and strategy. If there is a punishment (even if it far exceeds the crime), you can choose not to come close to committing that crime. Or, you can choose to take the risk to gain a throw or two.

There is more than one way to putt, and some of them have a lower chance of roll-aways. Learning those methods is increasing your skill so you have the tools to make the right strategic choices.

Excellent.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

It's a unique part of our game that I would not want to see go away.

Make the putt or suffer the consequences.

 

[Cgkdisc]

If disc golf were ONLY a game of skill, I would want to eliminate all roll-aways.

However, disc golf is a game of skill and strategy. If there is a punishment (even if it far exceeds the crime), you can choose not to come close to committing that crime. Or, you can choose to take the risk to gain a throw or two.

There is more than one way to putt, and some of them have a lower chance of roll-aways. Learning those methods is increasing your skill so you have the tools to make the right strategic choices.

No one knows how to putt or can learn to putt in a way where the putt has both a chance to be made and at the same time reduce the flukiness of roll-aways, just like no one knows how to putt to reduce fluky cut-throughs. It is not a skill that can be developed, partly because our target is not radially symmetrical. Even throwing upside down sliders where you don't throw to sink the putt can sometimes be dicey, even on level ground. Defending against them by design is the primary way to reduce the equivalent of "2-shot penalty" roll-aways which is the primary issue here. The more common "1-shot penalty" roll-aways can't really be stopped but can mostly be contained with good design.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I don't know if I agree with you OP... there is a risk/reward at those pins near slopes. Some ppl do carry super soft putters for that reason.

I hate when it happens to me but still... I don't want to see rollaway catches around pins that are on slopes

^this x 100 :hfive:

I used to hate it when I started, but then I realized it was about mitigating risk. For L-R slopes, you can adjust your release (hyzer or annie) to encourage the disc to land flat so it's more like to stay put. Softer plastics absorb more kinetic energy, and should be less inclined to bounce and get feet. But precarious pin placements really force you to weigh your liklihood of sinking the shot against the risk of missing it. As long as the aren't overused on a course, I love 'em.

 

[mark996]

I think, like many others here, it's part of the mental game. You either make a decision to run it, or make a decision to lay up. Disc selection, release angle, speed, height, it all has to be factored in on the approach shot. I like these kinds of holes sometimes over the mundane bomber type holes because they force a strategic approach, breaks up the grip it and rip it type courses.

 

[rocthecourse]

Skip ahead to 1:32, should have just layed up.

 

[zenbot]

It's a unique part of our game that I would not want to see go away.

Make the putt or suffer the consequences.

Absolutely. :thmbup:

 

[zenbot]

I hate to equate "flukey" with "I didn't consider all the possibilities". As many have said there are certainly ways to minimize risk. Even when the best in the world have "unlucky" days I'm sure there were things they could have done differently.

Nobody complains when you botch a putt and it sits right at the pole...except the guy on your card that had a rollaway.

 

[sidewinder22]

What would Johnny Sias do?

 

[Steve West]

No one knows how to putt or can learn to putt in a way where the putt has both a chance to be made and at the same time reduce the flukiness of roll-aways, just like no one knows how to putt to reduce fluky cut-throughs. ....

Perhaps not. But I think I can increase my chance of avoiding both when there are two additional throws on the line. That's why I practice without the chains or pole.

I'll grant that I may be wrong about the possibility, but it's more fun to play when I'm thinking of a strategy to avoid roll-aways and cut-throughs, even if it is all in my head.