brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
This is the most outrageous claim in this entire thread.
Ehh… I get it. Geddy isn't for everyone and I feel the same way about Fleetwood Mac...
... Anything not sung by Nicks is good quality music.
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PDGA Updates Gender Policy
- Thread starter brutalbrutus
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Ehh… I get it. Geddy isn't for everyone and I feel the same way about Fleetwood Mac...
... Anything not sung by Nicks is good quality music.
So you think it's OK for someone who was born as a man to sing like a lady? How do all the ladies in power trio prog rock bands feel when they didn't get a gig because Geddy sings prettier than them?This is the most outrageous claim in this entire thread.
triggered.meme
brutalbrutus
* Ace Member *
:clap:
That's good stuff zenny.
That's good stuff zenny.
As soon as you typed these words you entered post-truth America. I hope you enjoy wearing camo. :|
I was really hoping you wouldn't call my bluff.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
Julie Slick
My spouse is very into Rush, and used to take me to all of their concerts, until I revealed that I have some kind of Geddy Lee nerve deafness or something, such that I simply cannot comprehend the words that he is singing. It's like going to a show in a foreign language.
texasissouth
Double Eagle Member
Next up on the DGCR special: Is Gender a Par 2?
I don't understand why everyone is all over SD on this issue.. He believes that you are either A born Male or B born Female. In the great grand scheme of things he isn't really wrong. You aren't going to change his opinion and their are many many people that believe the way he does. End of story really. That being said I don't care what parts you have or don't have... just be kind. Where is Ben Shapiro anyways now that freakin guy could make this interesting.
The idea that a man would transition or fake being a woman just to win a disc golf tournament sounds ridiculous because it is. Of course people have done crazier things but that is not the point.
When a man comes out as trans and makes the transition they understandibly expect to be treated as a woman. That is the whole point.
They want potential sexual partners to see them as a woman, they want to be called she, Mrs., Mam, etc., they want to sign up for female only yoga classes, and many other things. If they are a bowler they may sign up for the ladies bowling league, if they are a disc golfer then...
It seems likely that at some point a good male disc golfer will come out as trans. Not just to win at disc golf, but because they believe that is who they are. What happens next is the question. Men are obviously superior athletes on average than women and the talent pool of elite and near elite athletes is much deeper. That is not to disparage women's athletics, and I strongly support their right to compete against each other because they are different.
I noticed some duplicates on the list, but the pdga website shows approximately 800 males with a higher current rating than 966 rated Paige Pierce. There are approximately 1800 males rates higher than current women's world champion Paige Bjerkaas.
How will the elite women feel when a 980 rated male comes out as trans and starts playing FPO. How will we feel if in 15 years there are 5 or so of these players and biological women are shut out from major podiums.
Persons born XY have inherent athletic advantages that do not disappear with a few months of hormone treatment, probably even not after many years. To deny this is being willfully ignorant. To take someone's word that they are female without requiring any such treatment or testing is a terrible idea.
Allowing XY athletes to compete in Female divisions destroys the foundation of women's athletics. It denies the fact that women are physically different and denies them the ability to compete at the elite level.
I really do feel very sympathetic to the struggles of transgendered people. I can't Imagine what it must feel like to be so uncomfortable in your own skin. But we can't allow our compassion to cloud our judgement. Allowing transwomen to compete in female divisions is not fair to biological women.
It is easy to be a keyboard hero advocating for people that the majority of the population feels deep sympathy for. It is harder to say no I'm sorry I know you've had it rough but it is not fair for you to compete against women. It is extremely hard to be the executive that signs a policy protecting women's athletics when there is a mob waiting to take scalps and boycott every business associated with your organization.
I hope every transgendered person finds peace and happiness. I hope they feel supported and accepted. I hope they come play random doubles and putting leagues and play in tournaments in the correct division. But XY transwomen should not be eligible for FPO or any F division.
Athletes who are legitimately intersex via genetic abnormality are a separate issue not easily addressed in a quick post. But our desire to accommodate these persons if possible should not open the doors for XY males to compete as women.
When a man comes out as trans and makes the transition they understandibly expect to be treated as a woman. That is the whole point.
They want potential sexual partners to see them as a woman, they want to be called she, Mrs., Mam, etc., they want to sign up for female only yoga classes, and many other things. If they are a bowler they may sign up for the ladies bowling league, if they are a disc golfer then...
It seems likely that at some point a good male disc golfer will come out as trans. Not just to win at disc golf, but because they believe that is who they are. What happens next is the question. Men are obviously superior athletes on average than women and the talent pool of elite and near elite athletes is much deeper. That is not to disparage women's athletics, and I strongly support their right to compete against each other because they are different.
I noticed some duplicates on the list, but the pdga website shows approximately 800 males with a higher current rating than 966 rated Paige Pierce. There are approximately 1800 males rates higher than current women's world champion Paige Bjerkaas.
How will the elite women feel when a 980 rated male comes out as trans and starts playing FPO. How will we feel if in 15 years there are 5 or so of these players and biological women are shut out from major podiums.
Persons born XY have inherent athletic advantages that do not disappear with a few months of hormone treatment, probably even not after many years. To deny this is being willfully ignorant. To take someone's word that they are female without requiring any such treatment or testing is a terrible idea.
Allowing XY athletes to compete in Female divisions destroys the foundation of women's athletics. It denies the fact that women are physically different and denies them the ability to compete at the elite level.
I really do feel very sympathetic to the struggles of transgendered people. I can't Imagine what it must feel like to be so uncomfortable in your own skin. But we can't allow our compassion to cloud our judgement. Allowing transwomen to compete in female divisions is not fair to biological women.
It is easy to be a keyboard hero advocating for people that the majority of the population feels deep sympathy for. It is harder to say no I'm sorry I know you've had it rough but it is not fair for you to compete against women. It is extremely hard to be the executive that signs a policy protecting women's athletics when there is a mob waiting to take scalps and boycott every business associated with your organization.
I hope every transgendered person finds peace and happiness. I hope they feel supported and accepted. I hope they come play random doubles and putting leagues and play in tournaments in the correct division. But XY transwomen should not be eligible for FPO or any F division.
Athletes who are legitimately intersex via genetic abnormality are a separate issue not easily addressed in a quick post. But our desire to accommodate these persons if possible should not open the doors for XY males to compete as women.
Binky Yutz
Par Member
- Joined
- May 4, 2014
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- 224
I've read all 23 pages posted so far.....my head hurts....
Opinions are like a _ _ holes, everyone has one, and they all stink.....
This thread is an exercise in futility....
Opinions are like a _ _ holes, everyone has one, and they all stink.....
This thread is an exercise in futility....
Gender is more than 2. Haven't you been reading this thread?
I rather agree. Except for his dragging political labels into it.
His opinion is intuitive, pretty consistent with human understanding from the beginning of time until very recently, and consistent with experience about 99% of the time.
It's not the first time that science has overturned the obvious, and surely won't be the last.
(Though as a stubborn old guy myself, I am curious whether there's a word to describe people with male sex organs, now that "male" has been ruled out).
A couple decades from now the bold statement will still be true, curious to see what that scientific belief will be.
This is a naked assertion that contradicts the evidence which has been gathered and analyzed. The IOC and the PDGA's medical board have reviewed the available information and studies, and around the globe many experts have been hard at work on this, and they conclude the precise opposite of what you say. Convince them otherwise. What have you got?
Our sport is self-officiated and built around trust and the benefit of the doubt. It's on the first page of the rule book in big letters. Transgender people are not inherently untrustworthy, and to single them out as such in a sport of trust is a slap in their face.
Another naked assertion. As above, convince the experts otherwise.
Naked assertion. As above, convince the experts otherwise.
This mischaracterizes supporters of transgender athletes of not actually believing what they are writing ("keyboard hero"). Subtly calling one's debate opponents liars is a shady tactic, so here, have a spotlight.
In addition, you are accusing the PDGA of being cowards in the face of a dishonest mob. Not a good look.
They will have neither peace nor happiness when people deny them access to parts of public life for misguided reasons. You have not shown your work.
Here your animus for transgender people is laid bare: you would rather discriminate against intersex athletes than "accidentally" allow transgender ones to compete in the appropriate division. You'll throw one disadvantaged group under the bus just to stick it to another.
You may feel like you're being reasonable, because you're writing your ideas out in long form with good grammar and punctuation, but at the end of the day, your ideas are founded on nothing more than smoke, and needlessly hurt others.
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
The human experience is a fluid situation. Rigidity prevents movement of perception. Perception is fluid. The only constant is change as they say. Fixed points of view keep the perception stuck in place, antithetical to life as we know it. Point being, if the trees don't sway they break in the wind.
texasissouth
Double Eagle Member
I've skimmed it. Basically following IOC protocol is a good decision for smaller sports specifically so they basically pass the buck to a more well funded and researched team.
It's a very interesting topic and one that I actually can't decide where I stand on myself. I agree that a MtF would more than likely have an innate advantage. This thread has mentioned the hits when it comes to that; Bone density, fast twitch fibers, etc. I think some people have glossed over the fact that if you are MtF the IOC and thus PDGA now has to make sure you meet certain physical guidelines to insure fairness. So some of the muscular density issues are not, in fact, issues. One thing that does not change with HRT would be your structure. In disc golf, levers matter. Having big levers gives you wiggle room on how perfect your form needs to be. Big Jerm can throw pretty far, he also plants open compared to P McB. How much of Jerms height can be attributed to his male puberty? How far could PP throw if she was 6'5"? How much does this differ from "normal" anomalous individuals?
Sports and gladiatorial combat in the thunderdome are a few of the sticking points where a movement towards a society with more open gender norms is going to butt against, and actually matter with physiological differences. Which is why this topic can get so heated. If gender isn't a par 2, why should sports be divided as such?
Additionally complicating the issue is both natural variances within the standard deviations, as well as natural anomalous persons. Plenty of examples have been given (Caster Semenya, intersex persons, AIS, Hyperandrogenism, XX male syndrome) but these are all sex issues, not gender issues.
I think the closest agreement I can reach in my own mind would be a 3 category option; Open, Mixed and XX. Obviously a lot of people would hate this.
I care because peoples' beliefs inform their actions. When lots of people think poorly of another group of people, and there are more of the former than the latter, bad things tend to happen to the smaller group.
I agree, be kind, it's paramount to our survival, but unkindness must be challenged. Challenging unkindness makes noise, but it results in greater peace in the long run.
Fake news
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
Rigid perception
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