Zero Masks, Zero Social Distancing...

[BogeyNoMore]

This is really only true in 'Murica and a couple of other places. Because by and large, our populous is just...really dumb. That's not an insult, just truth. And now bc of covid, that's finally catching up with us.

In the rest of the world, far higher percentages of people follow health initiatives. Because they are HEALTH INITIATIVES, not political games.

We have zero, ZERO sense of togetherness here.

This right here.

It sucks because if everyone acted responsibly and selflessly by wearing masks and practicing social distancing, then more of us would feel comfortable going out in public.

Pretty much my exact thoughts.
WE are our own worst enemy.

 

[Dingus]

Troll? Are you joking or just being "that guy"?


*sigh* Liability is a big deal whether or not you choose recognize it. I run a multimillion dollar outdoor recreation-based entity and literally deal with it directly on a daily basis and even that doesn't keep you from being sued- because someone can sue you for *literally anything* if they even vaguely suspect you of causing them loss of income/damaging their legally held contracts' viability/injured them somehow- or even if you inadvertently created a situation where they hurt themselves!


So yeah go ahead and call me a troll all you want, it is just an admission that you don't understand any of this. Real professionals take steps to protect their assets, and those who don't are soon to part with them. Simple as that. Excuse me for caring and hoping that a cool org like Foundation gets their **** together before something bad happens and they get HOSED. Putting people in danger for a promo photo that's now being passed around as an example of what *not* to do is generally regarded as BUSH LEAGUE.

He was calling me a troll, not you

In your opinion, is there an effective way to hold events like DG tournaments/leagues while shielding yourself from liability? Or is it just such a problem that you would avoid it altogether?

 

[DoWork]

Actually I can't, can you share? I would instinctively think that the dangers of COVID are pretty well known and those people are assuming the risks. I'm no expert, what is the reality?

Well for one, if they hosted an event where a Pro caught the virus, you could likely kiss their other events goodbye at the very least. If that Pro was to say become hospitalized, die or survive with pervasive deficiencies that hurt their performance and their main sponsor felt they lost out on money from tour disc sales, endorsements, etc- and mind you that's for *assumed future earnings too* they could absolutely go after the entity that allegedly caused the damage.

Now conversely, Foundation could absolutely argue in court that said Pro was aware of risks and had assumed them, but that takes a lot of money to argue and if they didn't have the Pro sign an actual written waiver stating that, they're pretty much screwed after already shelling out the cash to try fight it. As an entity with no real assets, they'd be sunk before the first shot was fired. Tort law is UGLY AS HELL and super scary, and that's why people *should* be taking every step they possibly can to CYA, even when you personally feel the prospective dangers are overblown.

Also, this isn't even really a discussion about COVID, it's about risk management, or in this case the complete dearth of it.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Well shoot, guess I'm a nationalist now! :|



Wrong. If you are going to a store without a mask right now, you don't give a crap about anyone else. That's a fact.

Also, one can assume anything one wants. You, master of semantics, should have picked a gooder word.

Yes, that was a bad word, at least without qualification. "Rightly assume" or "rightly conclude" may have been better.

I'm not going to discuss this topic here any more. If anyone wants to talk privately, that's fine with me. I can only say that I'm puzzled by your judgments since I care about others intensely and find the greatest happiness in my life comes from acting for their good and joy.

 

[McCready]

I won't say what my own position is, because I haven't got the energy to do so justly within this frenzy. But it is important to know that it is impossible to assume anything about a person's intelligence, moral character, concern for others, or concern for their own health, simply by observing their mask habits.

I think you can make certain assumptions about the mask truthers and be correct about 90% of the time. There's a large overlap with the Plandemic nonsense and other assorted nutbaggery circulating in social media. But in principle I agree with you and I constantly check myself when I'm feeling judgmental. Mostly because I end up just getting angry and frustrated and there's nothing to be done about it.

I like to imagine living in another country where people trust expertise and know their leaders are working in the peoples' best interests. It's kind of soothing if you can mentally hang out in that place for a little while. The reality of living in this hellscape gets pretty taxing, especially knowing the worst days are still ahead.

 

[Dingus]

I care about others intensely and find the greatest happiness in my life comes from acting for their good and joy.

Gets told it would bring joy to people if he wears a mask
Says no
Won't talk about it anymore
:\

 

[DoWork]

He was calling me a troll, not you

In your opinion, is there an effective way to hold events like DG tournaments/leagues while shielding yourself from liability? Or is it just such a problem that you would avoid it altogether?

I will apologize in advance for how long and wordy these legal mumbo jumbo posts will likely be, they're hard to articulate succinctly. The key is to mitigate risk BEFORE you have to litigate. There is ALWAYS a way to minimize your risk, but nothing is airtight if the plaintiff has enough money to go after you with. A properly-written waiver is worth it's weight in platinum, but they are of course written by lawyers and cost money.

Beyond the simple liability waiver (which doesn't stop someone from suing you, it just gives you a leg to stand on in court), there are several paths to mitigating risks if you take the time to identify and handle points of risk.

In this case, having the proper SOPs and enforcement is key. Someone has to literally go over every point of contact (f&b concessions, bathrooms, vendors, spectators, pro protections etc.) come up with a plan to reduce or eliminate the risk through that interaction and have a means to enforce it. That could be as simple as requiring masks for all spectators/employees/vendors and sanitizing between customers at a t-shirt stand, or it could be as intensive as requiring anybody that's allowed within 25' of a pro to have an armband indicating they've been tested and cleared by onsite medical staff, with a TD on hand to keep people in line.

There is no *one way* though- each entity is totally unique and while you can "stand on the shoulders of giants" so to speak by seeing what others are doing in relatable industries, but it takes someone intricately familiar with the operational setup to identify risk points and come up with realistic solutions to combat the risks they put people in.

It's worth noting that while the above mentioned steps are recommended, we're talking about the decision being made to crowd everyone together for a photo- something that's not only easily avoidable, it's flat out dumb right now. Commenting on how silly that is shouldn't even be considered on the same planet as a calculated Risk Mitigation Effort, and more lumped into full on facepalm realm of full on stupidity and short-sightedness.

I love Foundation and Paul, and don't want to see anything bad happen to any one of them. This is a teachable moment AFAIAC, and we can all be better and should keep trying- for everyone's sake.

 

[ru4por]

He was calling me a troll, not you

True. This is a troll infested thread, all working harder than the next for attention. Please, for the love of god, landfill this.

 

[DoWork]

True. This is a troll infested thread, all working harder than the next for attention. Please, for the love of god, landfill this.

This may completely blow your mind, but it's entirely possible that we can carry on a conversation about risk management and you simply find something else to do with your time. Nobody's making you suffer through your own involvement here except you and you certainly aren't adding anything of value to the discussion.

Food for thought.

 

[Dcinmd]

Now conversely, Foundation could absolutely argue in court that said Pro was aware of risks and had assumed them, but that takes a lot of money to argue and if they didn't have the Pro sign an actual written waiver stating that, they're pretty much screwed after already shelling out the cash to try fight it.

I know all of the recent events I have signed up for recently have a nice long Covid waiver that you have to sign at the end of registration on DG Scene.

They ran their tournament thru DG United and I have no clue as to what type of waivers if any that you have to sign to participate.

 

[Monocacy]

. . . The key is to mitigate risk BEFORE you have to litigate. . . .

Yes. Typically the first consideration for avoiding liability (after checking legality) is asking "is there an industry standard"? Failing to meet published industry standards leaves an organization wide open for liability (disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, etc. etc.).

In this case, the industry standard is the PDGA Requirements and Best Practices for PDGA Sanctioned Play During COVID-19. Quoting from that document:

Event directors and all staff, players, spectators, etc. (event participants) must follow all government guidelines for the event's location concerning conducting organized sporting events, including following any requirements for physical distancing (example: minimum two-meter [6 feet] physical distancing) upon arrival at the event and at all times prior to, during, and after their rounds at the event and in all event locations.

Events should avoid physical group settings such as player meetings, award ceremonies, vending, or any other ancillary activity that brings a larger group of participants together.

Advise players before arrival to avoid congregating in any area (parking lot, practice baskets, bathroom areas, staffing area, etc.).​

So, yeah. A group photo in the middle of a pandemic seems like a middle finger to the PDGA, and makes disc golfers look like a bunch of irresponsible jerks.

 

[McCready]

I love Foundation and Paul, and don't want to see anything bad happen to any one of them. This is a teachable moment AFAIAC, and we can all be better and should keep trying- for everyone's sake.

We're 5+ months into this thing, and mitigation couldn't be more simple. We're beyond teaching. Some of us trust experts and science and some of us don't. Behavior change might come if there's a credible financial threat, but that seems unlikely. Any decent lawyer could point out that Paul stopped at a convenience store or dry cleaner right before the event and might have contracted the virus then. There's no proving he got it at the event.

 

[Hampstead]

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine

 

[Dingus]

It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel asymptomatic

FTFY

 

[McCready]

So, yeah. A group photo in the middle of a pandemic seems like a middle finger to the PDGA, and makes disc golfers look like a bunch of irresponsible jerks.

This is the part that pisses me off. It's embarrassing to be associated with this behavior, even marginally. Like when Wysocki ran over to hug the spectator at DGLO. You can think you're watching a serious event with elite athletes and then you see that. :doh:

 

[DoWork]

I know all of the recent events I have signed up for recently have a nice long Covid waiver that you have to sign at the end of registration on DG Scene.

They ran their tournament thru DG United and I have no clue as to what type of waivers if any that you have to sign to participate.

That's great! Glad to hear that.

 

[DoWork]

We're 5+ months into this thing, and mitigation couldn't be more simple. We're beyond teaching. Some of us trust experts and science and some of us don't. Behavior change might come if there's a credible financial threat, but that seems unlikely. Any decent lawyer could point out that Paul stopped at a convenience store or dry cleaner right before the event and might have contracted the virus then. There's no proving he got it at the event.

Any decent lawyer could charge you thousands to do that but yeah, I mean I just said that above but I think you're missing the point- you're supposed to lay down groundwork *beforehand* to eliminate this possibility altogether and that's what is being discussed now.

Citing we're "beyond teaching" is fine, but rules and enforcement don't care about teaching. They state requirements and if you don't meet them you're removed. It isn't about who believes what at all and that's irrelevant to regulations.

 

[McCready]

Any decent lawyer could charge you thousands to do that but yeah, I mean I just said that above but I think you're missing the point- you're supposed to lay down groundwork *beforehand* to eliminate this possibility altogether and that's what is being discussed now.

Citing we're "beyond teaching" is fine, but rules and enforcement don't care about teaching. They state requirements and if you don't meet them you're removed. It isn't about who believes what at all and that's irrelevant to regulations.

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I think you're asking a lot of the people responsible for organizing the event and posting that photo. I don't think there's a lot of competence, forethought, or any concern about the image of the sport. I would wager there's an overriding ideological motive to it, and the photo serves as kind of a middle finger. I doubt there will be any consequences, other than some of us writing them off completely now, if we were ever tempted to follow them, watch their videos or buy their merch in the first place.

 

[DoWork]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying. I think you're asking a lot of the people responsible for organizing the event and posting that photo. I don't think there's a lot of competence, forethought, or any concern about the image of the sport. I would wager there's an overriding ideological motive to it, and the photo serves as kind of a middle finger. I doubt there will be any consequences, other than some of us writing them off completely now, if we were ever tempted to follow them, watch their videos or buy their merch in the first place.

I'm not asking anything per se, just laying out how risk management normally works, and how it has not been applied here but should be. They can run events however they want, but if it was my career I'd be taking it more seriously, they've had impressive growth lately and it only takes one slip up to cancel it all right out.

I don't really agree with the middle finger assessment as we all want a pic with Paul, but responsibility *should* outweigh desire in times like these, no matter how hard it is to say no.

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

My point is that, whether or not they might theoretically be effective, these "health initiatives" often only serve as political tools. To pretend that disc golfers are any more or less educated, caring, responsible, stubborn, selfish or enlightened than the population is silly. To be shocked by their actions is to be ignorant of the actions of the real world population.

I won't say what my own position is, because I haven't got the energy to do so justly within this frenzy. But it is important to know that it is impossible to assume anything about a person's intelligence, moral character, concern for others, or concern for their own health, simply by observing their mask habits.

All I am doing by observing the mask habits of disc golfers is deciding I don't want anything to do with them at the moment because they are not wearing masks (or social distancing — I'm fine w/o masks given other actions and behaviors).

Having watched the Severin Lang tournament videos over the last two days and seeing all of two masks total in what were 20-30 people crowds around the lead card, I can assume that these people don't value strict social distancing and mitigation steps. What's that say about their moral fiber? <Shrug> But as an at-risk person I can conclude, based on their actions, that they don't care about me.

As for judging disc golf players versus the general population, that's a pointless exercise. What's not pointless is to say that neither the players nor the DGPT have lived up to the standards the Tour set *for itself and its players.*

My own commentary seeing as I see local events get sanctioned under city social distancing rules and then openly flaunt those rules is that disc golfers do have some herd mentalities when it comes to particular values, relationships with authority, etc. As someone who elected to be a disc golfer — as we all did — I've never felt so distant from the disc golf community and indifferent to if I ever do any group events again or, hell, even play.

It's also likely true that many disc golfers have internalized the idea that disc golf is safe as an absolute statement instead of a statement based on the execution of social distancing and other needed behaviors.