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National Tour folds into DGPT

What if a lot of players aren't making the trip in either direction and they can still have loaded fields at both? Serious question... not trying to be a jerk.

i'm sure they can and will. but wouldn't you prefer to see the field at a major filled with all the best players in the world? DGLO 5 days later incentivizes US players not to make the trip. it also seems obvious that more US players in Europe and more European players in the US is better for the growth of the pro side.


Idlewild was stuck in that postion in 17 and 18 iirc. It definitely hurt the attendance

totally


Given the current reluctance and difficulties in air travel, this might be irrelevant.

good point but wouldn't it make more sense to plan and hope for the best?
 
This is baffling.

We have several people on here that are apparently well respected for how they run events. They say it's not unusual to come out of pocket for an event. They do it for the love if the game.

OTOH. you say they are profiting.

I'm in the dark. Are these TDS lying and running dg events is mad money?


no, he said they are profiting off the am side. profiting off the AMs and coming out in the red are not mutually exclusive. his post actually made it pretty clear.

maybe being baffled is just a permanent boomer attribute. you guys never were good with economics either.
 
atings cut-off everyone below that playing Open would de-facto be a second-class Open player.

That second-class of Open players will still depend on local clubs to provide the events they play in. I'm not sure how or if lifting the imagined "we have to support these guys" payout situation (no one will be trying to make a living hitting B tiers anymore) will effect the way payouts are approached. I heard a kazillion times in the 90's that "we are never going to get Climo here if we don't have better payouts"*. Now you are not going to get McBeth to your event no matter how outrageous you make your payout, and everybody knows it so no one has to try anymore.

*we never got Climo to come to our event, anyway.

The second class of open player pretty much already exists de facto and will be formalized in the next couple years. There will be plenty of players trying to make a "living" hitting B tiers just as Schweberger and Dickerson have done regionally. The idea that the "stars" will not be coming to the smaller events is indeed problematic. I'm not sure why anyone would want to run an A Tier that isn't tied to DGPT in some fashion at this point (even though I am likely to do it).
 
no, he said they are profiting off the am side. profiting off the AMs and coming out in the red are not mutually exclusive. his post actually made it pretty clear.

maybe being baffled is just a permanent boomer attribute. you guys never were good with economics either.

So all these TD's are ahead (profiting , actually) from the AM side but then willingly come out of pocket for pro payout out of the goodness of their hearts? And you think I don't know economics?

Ultimately your posts answered exactly no questions.
 
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The second class of open player pretty much already exists de facto and will be formalized in the next couple years. There will be plenty of players trying to make a "living" hitting B tiers just as Schweberger and Dickerson have done regionally. The idea that the "stars" will not be coming to the smaller events is indeed problematic. I'm not sure why anyone would want to run an A Tier that isn't tied to DGPT in some fashion at this point (even though I am likely to do it).

I am not sure that anyone is going to be able to run an A Tier tied to a DGPT event. It seems they are turning those events over to the DGPT TD's. I don't see Nate giving up the 500+ player AM side DGLO event. Come into town, use local free volunteers to put in the work, offer a sponsor provided player pack, early sign up tax, hole sponsorships, exclusive sponsor LE runs of discs.....

I am not begrudging any TD their due, but these are levels sponsorship, provided to the AM tournament, that I cannot get. It is money coming straight out of my disc golf communities pockets and the return is minimal, at the moment. Likely to be nothing soon. Again, this is all to benefit a 100 players in the world.

We already run our A Tier event each year as AM only.
 
The second class of open player pretty much already exists de facto and will be formalized in the next couple years. There will be plenty of players trying to make a "living" hitting B tiers just as Schweberger and Dickerson have done regionally. The idea that the "stars" will not be coming to the smaller events is indeed problematic. I'm not sure why anyone would want to run an A Tier that isn't tied to DGPT in some fashion at this point (even though I am likely to do it).
The A Tier issue will be interesting to watch. A Tiers were downgraded in stature when the NT was established, but there were not enough NT's with enough payout to just play NT's so there was a real reason for A Tiers so far as Open players were concerned. The A Tiers schedule shuffle was always to get your A Tier the weekend before or after the closest NT event and try to get the road warriors to play your event.

Now with DGPT and then the Silver Series under that, you might as well just schedule your A Tier for whenever is convenient for you. Those road players are not coming.

So the A/B/C Tier system exists pretty much entirely for Amateur play now. A very small slice of the pie will be local/regional Open players. Those players are not going tp be "draw" names in most cases. The old system of judging an A Tier based off their Open payout makes no sense at this point; how much of your resources can you really justify putting into that division anymore?

That's given that things stay as they are. Perhaps playing Open becomes more attractive when you know all the 1020+ rated guys won't be there? Who knows?
 
The A Tier issue will be interesting to watch. A Tiers were downgraded in stature when the NT was established, but there were not enough NT's with enough payout to just play NT's so there was a real reason for A Tiers so far as Open players were concerned. The A Tiers schedule shuffle was always to get your A Tier the weekend before or after the closest NT event and try to get the road warriors to play your event.

Now with DGPT and then the Silver Series under that, you might as well just schedule your A Tier for whenever is convenient for you. Those road players are not coming.

So the A/B/C Tier system exists pretty much entirely for Amateur play now. A very small slice of the pie will be local/regional Open players. Those players are not going tp be "draw" names in most cases. The old system of judging an A Tier based off their Open payout makes no sense at this point; how much of your resources can you really justify putting into that division anymore?

That's given that things stay as they are. Perhaps playing Open becomes more attractive when you know all the 1020+ rated guys won't be there? Who knows?

Regional pros have been the red headed stepchildren of the PDGA for a few years now. This is unlikely to change.

Hosting Elite events now comes with the potential for considerable spectator revenue. Who controls that will be a big question moving forward. I don't really see that potential extending to the Silver Series or random PDGA A tiers unless for some reason the 5 or so truly marketable players decide to show up for some reason.

Now would be a good time for the PDGA to revamp their antiquated tier system which is based almost solely on payouts. Of course, the last 40 years would have been a good time to revamp that as well.
 
I'm not sure about calling this a "playoff" format since the DGPT Championship is still just based on the points standings at the end of the season.

If I'm understanding this correctly: if someone already has a spot locked up because of great performance in 8 earlier events, they could completely bomb at the Green Mountain or MVP Open and still make the DGPT Championship. Or they could skip one/both events entirely. It's not really a "playoff" in that case.
 
Regional pros have been the red headed stepchildren of the PDGA for a few years now. This is unlikely to change.

Hosting Elite events now comes with the potential for considerable spectator revenue. Who controls that will be a big question moving forward. I don't really see that potential extending to the Silver Series or random PDGA A tiers unless for some reason the 5 or so truly marketable players decide to show up for some reason.

Now would be a good time for the PDGA to revamp their antiquated tier system which is based almost solely on payouts. Of course, the last 40 years would have been a good time to revamp that as well.

Question--what is the motivation for running an event as PDGA sanctioned? Is it ultimately that the event becomes part of the "system" and people get ranked? Is there really anything else that comes out of an event being sanctioned?
 
Question--what is the motivation for running an event as PDGA sanctioned? Is it ultimately that the event becomes part of the "system" and people get ranked? Is there really anything else that comes out of an event being sanctioned?

attendance, advertising, affordable insurance (big one), ratings for players, all around legitimacy.
 
Question--what is the motivation for running an event as PDGA sanctioned? Is it ultimately that the event becomes part of the "system" and people get ranked? Is there really anything else that comes out of an event being sanctioned?

attendance, advertising, affordable insurance (big one), ratings for players, all around legitimacy.

All of the above. Sanctioning brings security from other sanctioned competition, around here many are looking to play in World Championships and the points gained in sanction competition are what earns you a potential berth.

But, as biscoe says.....insurance is the big draw.
 
So all these TD's are ahead (profiting , actually) from the AM side but then willingly come out of pocket for pro payout out of the goodness of their hearts? And you think I don't know economics?

Ultimately your posts answered exactly no questions.
Long story: The inclusion of amateurs into the PDGA was in a lot of ways a device to bring more money into the sport i.e. more people paying to play in events. The thing is that disc golf stated upside-down with pro disc golf predating amateur disc golf, so up to that point more players=more money in the pro purse. With amateurs coming in, the trick was how to make amateur registration money make the pro purse bigger.

The solution was the wholesale/retail differential. Amateurs were going to win prizes, so when figuring the value of the amateur prizes you would use a wholesale figure like $8 for a disc. You paid $5 for the disc wholesale, though. That gives you $3 profit.

That $3 was not ever considered the TD's profit to do what he pleased with in any scenario I was aware of in the 90's; that $3 went to the Open purse. The only wiggle room was if you were going to split it between Open, Women and Masters or if it was all going to the Open payout. TD's didn't make money. Period. If you wanted to make money, put your big boy pants on and earn it on the course.

When I first heard people talk about that arrangement was when Bruce Brakel started calling events that did that "Am Scam" events, arguing that the money should stay in the amateur divisions that generated it. That was early 00's; the argument still wasn't that the TD should be able to keep the $3, it was that the amateurs should get paid out more. Terry Miller at the time was running events and it was known that he was keeping some money (don't know if he was just covering costs or how significant it was) and he got put on full blast for doing that.

Old-school disc golf TDing was spending hours and hours organizing. You would pay for an ad in Disc Golf World News out of your own pocket, pay for a pavilion reservation out of your own pocket, pay the sanctioning cost out of your own pocket, drive around in your own car on your own gas begging people for sponsorship (bonus points for using vacation days to do it), call places like Innova (back in the land line with long distance charges days) begging for a deal...you just had an open meter of money running out of your pocket. Then you had work days on the course(s) and of course you had to coordinate those to get them ready plus call and beg the parks department to mow and empty the garbage cans and whatever else had to be done. So you had all that time in plus all that money in; you would finally get to tournament day and as soon as the Open players started getting there they would start bitching about the payout. Pretty soon you would abandon all hope of recouping your long-ago lost ad money, pavilion money, sanctioning money and anything else you had down as an expense, run the Am Scam like mad and then throw $250 of your own money in on top of all the sponsorship money in a desperate attempt to get all the payout bitching to stop and escape the weekend without being bad-mouthed all over the Midwest. You didn't want to get bad-mouth so people would come back next year so you could do it all over again. :| That's how it was done. I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying. It was what you signed up for as a TD; it was a thankless job that received no reimbursement. Good players deserved a fat payout; TD's deserved nothing.

That was a long time ago, though. Things change. There are tournament promoters out today making a living, so doing what Terry Miller was doing 20 years ago isn't taboo anymore. The DGPT events certainly are organized on a different principal. There are still some guys out there doing it the old-school way, though. It just kinda depends.

Anyway, I think that wholesale/retail differential "Am Scam" and the attitudes surrounding that is the basic concept that was being mentioned.
 
Question--what is the motivation for running an event as PDGA sanctioned? Is it ultimately that the event becomes part of the "system" and people get ranked? Is there really anything else that comes out of an event being sanctioned?

Cheap insurance is probably the #1 reason honestly. It was helpful years ago to have your event listed on the PDGA schedule, but with tournaments selling out within minutes I don't know if that's a big deal anymore.
 
attendance, advertising, affordable insurance (big one), ratings for players, all around legitimacy.

I forgot about the insurance, so that makes sense.

Seems to me attendance being linked to ratings/legitimacy aspect.

Seems to me that advertising is one the areas that is lacking?
 
Long story: The inclusion of amateurs into the PDGA was in a lot of ways a device to bring more money into the sport i.e. more people paying to play in events. The thing is that disc golf stated upside-down with pro disc golf predating amateur disc golf, so up to that point more players=more money in the pro purse. With amateurs coming in, the trick was how to make amateur registration money make the pro purse bigger.

The solution was the wholesale/retail differential. Amateurs were going to win prizes, so when figuring the value of the amateur prizes you would use a wholesale figure like $8 for a disc. You paid $5 for the disc wholesale, though. That gives you $3 profit.

That $3 was not ever considered the TD's profit to do what he pleased with in any scenario I was aware of in the 90's; that $3 went to the Open purse. The only wiggle room was if you were going to split it between Open, Women and Masters or if it was all going to the Open payout. TD's didn't make money. Period. If you wanted to make money, put your big boy pants on and earn it on the course.

When I first heard people talk about that arrangement was when Bruce Brakel started calling events that did that "Am Scam" events, arguing that the money should stay in the amateur divisions that generated it. That was early 00's; the argument still wasn't that the TD should be able to keep the $3, it was that the amateurs should get paid out more. Terry Miller at the time was running events and it was known that he was keeping some money (don't know if he was just covering costs or how significant it was) and he got put on full blast for doing that.

Old-school disc golf TDing was spending hours and hours organizing. You would pay for an ad in Disc Golf World News out of your own pocket, pay for a pavilion reservation out of your own pocket, pay the sanctioning cost out of your own pocket, drive around in your own car on your own gas begging people for sponsorship (bonus points for using vacation days to do it), call places like Innova (back in the land line with long distance charges days) begging for a deal...you just had an open meter of money running out of your pocket. Then you had work days on the course(s) and of course you had to coordinate those to get them ready plus call and beg the parks department to mow and empty the garbage cans and whatever else had to be done. So you had all that time in plus all that money in; you would finally get to tournament day and as soon as the Open players started getting there they would start bitching about the payout. Pretty soon you would abandon all hope of recouping your long-ago lost ad money, pavilion money, sanctioning money and anything else you had down as an expense, run the Am Scam like mad and then throw $250 of your own money in on top of all the sponsorship money in a desperate attempt to get all the payout bitching to stop and escape the weekend without being bad-mouthed all over the Midwest. You didn't want to get bad-mouth so people would come back next year so you could do it all over again. :| That's how it was done. I'm not saying it was right, I'm just saying. It was what you signed up for as a TD; it was a thankless job that received no reimbursement. Good players deserved a fat payout; TD's deserved nothing.

That was a long time ago, though. Things change. There are tournament promoters out today making a living, so doing what Terry Miller was doing 20 years ago isn't taboo anymore. The DGPT events certainly are organized on a different principal. There are still some guys out there doing it the old-school way, though. It just kinda depends.

Anyway, I think that wholesale/retail differential "Am Scam" and the attitudes surrounding that is the basic concept that was being mentioned.

Thanks. Not having lived through it and witnessed all of the history, it is hard to understand. Your thorough history lesson is appreciated.

Other sports/activities I've participated in have not had as much structure or strife.
By structure, I mean you have the PDGA requirements for an A/B/C tiers.

By strife I mean you pay to participate in the event, but somehow amateurs expect to break even. Take your local 10k run type events or cycling events. Nobody enters that thinking they are going to come out ahead or break even--you pay to get to participate. You get a T-shirt and snacks at the rest stops, maybe a water bottle (the equivalent of a player pack).

Those events are typically all volunteer and used as fund raisers, so I assume they are in the black technically speaking, but it's not for profit of the organizer.

All the strife seems to be a function of the structure that the PDGA has created resulting in (unfulfilled) expectations.
 
By strife I mean you pay to participate in the event, but somehow amateurs expect to break even. Take your local 10k run type events or cycling events. Nobody enters that thinking they are going to come out ahead or break even--you pay to get to participate. You get a T-shirt and snacks at the rest stops, maybe a water bottle (the equivalent of a player pack).

I imagine, although I could be wrong, that it might have something to do with the culture of cash games in disc golf. By which I mean that I believe it is is commonplace everywhere for there to be many, weekly, local, unsanctioned, cash-only events Random Doubles with Ace Pots and CTO awards, etc.

Those are typically expected to pay out all the cash they get in.

I'm not sure I can think of many other sports where there are organized weekly cash games.
 
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I'm not sure I can think of many other sports where there are organized weekly cash games.

Bowling and golf come to mind...

We had side pots, brackets during league and even after league cash games when i was bowling.

Before one of the local courses closed down, they had a friday night random draw 2man scramble that paid out skins and places as well as having an ace pot. I'm sure there are many other courses that do this around the country.
 
Bowling and golf come to mind...

We had side pots, brackets during league and even after league cash games when i was bowling.

Before one of the local courses closed down, they had a friday night random draw 2man scramble that paid out skins and places as well as having an ace pot. I'm sure there are many other courses that do this around the country.

Pool and darts in some areas, too.
 
I imagine, although I could be wrong, that it might have something to do with the culture of cash games in disc golf. By which I mean that I believe it is is commonplace everywhere for there to be many, weekly, local, unsanctioned, cash-only events Random Doubles with Ace Pots and CTO awards, etc.

Those are typically expected to pay out all the cash they get in.

I'm not sure I can think of many other sports where there are organized weekly cash games.

I played in a weekly mini this spring and it was like that. But, there wasn't really any overhead since it was a public park. Anyone could sign up and pay their $10 or whatever and there was a payout at the end.

But there was minimal effort involved to do that as well and if you didn't win/place/show or ace you had the privilege of donating your entry fee to others, but you got a play a round and hopefully have some fun.
 
Its not hard to imagine, IF DG in general continues to grow in popularity and monetary infusion, that there could be multiple tours, similar to professional ball golf (and even NASCAR), each at slightly lower talent levels.

The current Silver Series could end up adding a significant number of events, and be the next tour down, even to the point of events being contested the same weekend as DGPT events (which would be required pretty quickly, given the weather-dependent nature of DG in many parts of the country, though adding a couple Ice Bowls as Silver Series events would be so cool (pardon the pun). This would of course lead to fewer players at the top level events, which is fine, because I imagine many players prefer competing in events with similarly talented players, not those mostly 40-75 points above their rating, where their chance of winning is extremely low.

I would love to see more tourneys covered each year, because while I enjoy many of the DPGT events, some are boring to watch, and I also like seeing new courses, mainly to see if I want to add them to my must play list.

SIlver Series is part of DGPT

I'm not sure about calling this a "playoff" format since the DGPT Championship is still just based on the points standings at the end of the season.

If I'm understanding this correctly: if someone already has a spot locked up because of great performance in 8 earlier events, they could completely bomb at the Green Mountain or MVP Open and still make the DGPT Championship. Or they could skip one/both events entirely. It's not really a "playoff" in that case.

One article was quotes as saying they may change the formats and reduce the fields.
 

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