PDGA Board of Director Elections

[Monocacy]

People have to remember that the solution can't be worse than the problem.

^^^ This is an excellent point. 83% of PDGA members are amateurs, and winning one of the multitude of amateur divisions in a typical tournament is not exactly a life-changing event. And most disc golfers are neither PDGA members nor tournament competitors.

On the other hand, dealing with gender dysphoria and associated issues can quite literally be a matter of life and death. I do not have a direct stake in this issue, but my knee-jerk reaction is to avoid piling more crap on folks who may already be dealing with a lot.

So yes, let's not make the solution worse than the problem.

 

[Nova P]

How would everyone feel if Paul Mcbeth decided he is a woman and dominated fpo and on the other side Paige pierce decided she is a man and randomly cashed at top tier tournaments?

Transgender people don't suddenly decide to transition in order to stomp the competition in a sport. This is a silly and unrealistic straw man hypothetical. (Edit: And you're not the first or even thousandth person to propose it in a discussion of transgender athletes. It's so common it has a square on the BINGO card.)

 

[Arisugawa]

A number of issues to respond to here.

1) What if Paul McBeth decides he is a woman and goes on to dominate women's disc golf?

First off, I honestly don't believe anything like this is going to happen. This is all supposition, but my gut tells me that given the state of most medical resources available today, the whole "adult man decides to transition to a woman" is largely a non-issue. Someone who is transgender is likely going to transition much earlier in life than Paul is currently. This was something that happened in a different era when access to medications and surgeries were more difficult. Again, I could be mistaken on this - but I think someone who is going to transition is going to do so as early as legally possible.

But, for the sake of your question, let's say this happens. By the current PDGA rules (which mirror the prior IOC rules), Paul would need to be on the proper testosterone blockers, estrogen supplements, etc, for at least twelve months and provide proper documentation of this before being allowed to compete in FPO. The next question, after 12 months of hormone replacement, what kind of player is Paul? You're asking for data that isn't available. Every player I'm aware of who has publicly spoken about their transition has spoken to changes of strength and power - you should really look at Laura Natagaal for more info - she has documented the difference in her drive distance as well as how far her rating fell as a result of her transition.

What happens to Paul, though? She would still be an incredible player, but I doubt you're going to be seeing 1100 or 1050 rated rounds anytime soon.

Would she dominate? Possibly? Again - most of the time this question is asked, it assumed Paul transitions TOMORROW. A lot can happen to a person in a year, and not just physically. I don't want to speculate too negatively, but I'm not sure how Hannah would feel about this, or the rest of Paul's family. What would friends think? Lack of support can lead to depression and melancholy. It's quite possible Paul wouldn't want to play after 12 months. We don't know.

But if your question really is what if Paul played FPO tomorrow? That won't happen.

2) What if Paige decides she's a man and randomly cashed at events?

I'm going to assume you mean Paige does the opposite of Paul in this example, and is going to play MPO. Well - same situation in that you just don't know what will happen. With the current PDGA rules, Paige doesn't have to provide documentation. He can just start playing now. How long will he have to take testosterone to be competitive with the rest of MPO? Again, that's data we don't have. But it wouldn't be immediate, at least if by "random cashing" you mean making lead, chase, or third cards and not just making the cut line and taking last cash.

3) What happens if you have to play the division based on your birth certificate?

For transgender women - I imagine this is the end of them playing.

For transgender men - I imagine this is the end of them playing. And using Nova's example, let's say a transgender man decided to show everyone how idiotic this rule would be and played FPO. Watch us revolt like you haven't seen us revolt before when someone with a full beard and an Ed Hardy t-shirt shows up to play with us.

For intersex players and other conditions that don't fit neatly into the "god made two genders" defense - good luck with that. Either they don't play, or they use this as the platform they need to add fuel to the fire that would accompany trans men playing FPO to get the rule undone.

 

[BionicRib]

Transgender people don't suddenly decide to transition in order to stomp the competition in a sport. This is a silly and unrealistic straw man hypothetical. (Edit: And you're not the first or even thousandth person to propose it in a discussion of transgender athletes. It's so common it has a square on the BINGO card.)

So your answer to the question is to assume things I did not say and not answer the question?

 

[BionicRib]

Transgender people don't suddenly decide to transition in order to stomp the competition in a sport. This is a silly and unrealistic straw man hypothetical. (Edit: And you're not the first or even thousandth person to propose it in a discussion of transgender athletes. It's so common it has a square on the BINGO card.)

Fwiw I understand that transgender people don't just wake up and decide to be male or female. That was truly not where I was going with that post.

 

[DavidSauls]

Withdrawn, after BionicRib's #165.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

To simplify the debate, there are two options here. You can leave things the way they are, or you can effectely ban women who are transgender from playing organized disc golf. Those are the options we have. We don't really have to debate "other solutions"; there are no other solutions.

....

This is the truth of the whole matter. Pick a side and be done with it.

I think everyone should be able to play competitive disc golf.

 

[Nova P]

Fwiw I understand that transgender people don't just wake up and decide to be male or female. That was truly not where I was going with that post.

I would like to congratulate you on being one of the first, if not the first, person to ever ask that question in that manner in a spirit of true sincerity.

I've been doing this debate for a long, long time, and I've become something of an expert at spotting supposedly-clever "gotcha" questions or JAQing-off questions which are asked not to gather information in good faith, but rather to put harmful ideas on the table.

You have inadvertently done something that bad faith actors do all the time. Someone else in this discussion thread has already answered your very sincere question with an informative answer, and I'll defer to their well-written comment as a good reply, one which I cannot expand upon without just repeating what they wrote.

 

[roblee]

So, anyone have ideas which candidates (members vote for 2) seem qualified to represent you as new PDGA Board members? Some statements give specific priorities. Some give none. Unless you know any of these guys there just doesn't seem to be enough incite to make an informed pick. Voting starts in 6 days.

 

[Hampstead]

Nova I'm not trying to be fake nice. I have trans friends. I have gay friends. I hang out with them with no judgement.

The only question I asked that matters was not answered by you.

Is it possible that with 30 years of experience as a man that you might have a mental or physical advantage over a person who was born female?

I understand you identify as a women, but your birth certificate will always say male. Because of that simple fact, is it fathomable that you might have an advantage over players who have not had the opportunity to live as a male?



I do appreciate you passing judgement on me and people like me just based on a question I asked though. Appreciate that level of openness and love.

Chris, we have met a few times and competed against each other. I enjoyed those rounds and don't have anything bad to say about you based on those experiences. But, your post reads as "My black friend says it's okay if I say the N word." Just saying.

 

[Nova P]

Chris, we have met a few times and competed against each other. I enjoyed those rounds and don't have anything bad to say about you based on those experiences. But, your post reads as "My black friend says it's okay if I say the N word." Just saying.

I replied to his comment from my laptop in the parking lot of a gas station, while taking a quick break on the long drive to USWDGC. As such, I deliberately didn't address that because I only had the time to hit the most salient point among the many problems his post presented. Thanks for circling back to that.

 

[Hampstead]

I replied to his comment from my laptop in the parking lot of a gas station, while taking a quick break on the long drive to USWDGC. As such, I deliberately didn't address that because I only had the time to hit the most salient point among the many problems his post presented. Thanks for circling back to that.

Wishing you nothing but the best.

Safe travels!

 

[chris deitzel]

I'm pretty horrible with words at times.

And I'm definitely not gonna ever say the N word to anyone.

I just don't know what the solution is?

Does it get to the point where the country votes to no longer allow people to have gender changes with physical surgeries and hormone therapy? That may happen someday.

How do we define a division? What defines gender? Can gender be changed without surgery or the use of hormones? Is there a natural way for a human to change gender?


I guess what I meant by that comment was "I don't care what anyone does with their life. Be what you want to be. Do what you want to do. Love who you want. My thoughts and opinions should have no weight over what anyone else wants to do with their life. But when someone goes through a procedure to change their identity, is it fair for those people to play competitive sports against those born naturally?

That's really what it all boils down to. If someone can change their gender naturally without having to take any sort of supplements or any sort or surgery, then so be it. But there are pro athletes banned from play and hall of fames for using steroids. I'm not sure that this is much different than those situations?


I try to be accepting of all. But when someone's decision possibly affects the quality of life for others, than that's where there are problems. What is the solution? Regulate gender changing hormones under the controlled substances rules for sports? I have no idea. But I know there are a lot of moms who are very upset that their daughters have to compete against non-naturally-born women. I don't know the Pc term.

 

[Smigles]

Transgender people don't suddenly decide to transition in order to stomp the competition in a sport. This is a silly and unrealistic straw man hypothetical. (Edit: And you're not the first or even thousandth person to propose it in a discussion of transgender athletes. It's so common it has a square on the BINGO card.)

No matter when the trans people decide or how long they go trough the process. That is not the issue.

More and more sports now realise that born males have a physical advantage. The swimming association was the first, i think the weight lifting association allready followed, the rest of the sports will also follow sooner or later if they care at all about fair competition for women.


If the transition process really changes your body so fundamentally, i wonder why we have so many males who transition to females and then dominate sports, yet i have not heared of a single female transitioning and then dominating men in sports. I wonder why that is... If the hormones and therapies really change your body so fundamentally that born males are real females, then surely it should also work for women transitioning?

 

[Hampstead]

No matter when the trans people decide or how long they go trough the process. That is not the issue.

More and more sports now realise that born males have a physical advantage. The swimming association was the first, i think the weight lifting association allready followed, the rest of the sports will also follow sooner or later if they care at all about fair competition for women.


If the transition process really changes your body so fundamentally, i wonder why we have so many males who transition to females and then dominate sports, yet i have not heared of a single female transitioning and then dominating men in sports. I wonder why that is... If the hormones and therapies really change your body so fundamentally that born males are real females, then surely it should also work for women transitioning?

How many men dominate men's sports? A small percentage of elite athletes, right? Is it because they are men, or elite athletes?

 

[Smigles]

How many men dominate men's sports? A small percentage of elite athletes, right? Is it because they are men, or elite athletes?

I am sure that made sense in your head. somehow.


The question remains. It did not take long for male to female trans athletes to dominate in some womens sports. It is so obvious that we have this whole debate now.

Trans activists claim that the hormone therapy completely changes ones body and they are full 100% females now. I remember Laura talking on this board about how she lost distance and snap and muscle and feels weaker now.

I assume that the meds work the same for female to male transitions. So we should see former women that after transitioning can keep up with the worlds best male athletes, right? Where are they?

 

[discerdoo]

I have no problem with females who transition to male competing in male divisions.

Am I not inclusive?

 

[chris deitzel]

I replied to his comment from my laptop in the parking lot of a gas station, while taking a quick break on the long drive to USWDGC. As such, I deliberately didn't address that because I only had the time to hit the most salient point among the many problems his post presented. Thanks for circling back to that.

Yet you still have not responded to the most important question? Is it possible that a women who lived their life for 30 years as a man might have mental and physical advantages over a naturally born woman?

And is it possible for a human to change their sex without needed drugs or surgery to do so?

 

[DavidSauls]

Do the protected divisions (age or gender) exist exclusively due to the inherent athletic differences among groups of people (not individuals)? Or are there social or other reasons to have them, separately or in addition to the athleticism?

 

[Nova P]

Yet you still have not responded to the most important question?

Look at you, coming at me still like I owe you something. You've been nothing but an unbelievable drain on me over the course of this thread. I've devoted hours of time to writing long replies to your ignorant and uninformed bad-faith questions in this thread, I've laid bare some of my most private feelings for you, and I've explained how so very, very far out of your depth you are.

You, in return, have moved the goalposts, you've utterly ignored my long explanations and asked the same stupid transgender-101 level question to me repeatedly, so blatantly that my best response in one particular example was to copy and paste an entire 750-word comment which I had written in direct reply to you once already, and to tell you to read it this time. You've used language which invalidates and deeply insults me while claiming to have good intentions, hilariously, while trying to claim your "ally cookie" for having gay or trans friends or for bragging that you'll "call me female." (These are not things you brag about if you're a decent person. They're just things you do. That you did try to impress me with these things further demonstrated your ignorance to me.)

I have nothing else for you. You've taken and taken, and you have nothing to give to me. You're a vampire, a leech, a wrench laid across the terminals of my battery. There's a reason my last comment to you ended in "dismissed," and that is because until you reform, and that's a you project and not a me project, I am done with you.

So, no, I'm not going to answer this "one more question," because answering your questions has been an utter waste of my time, and you've been ****ting all over the ones I have provided you. You've exhausted my patience, and as I explained before, and I'll tell you one last time in the weird hope that you somehow suddenly begin to comprehend (or care about) the things that I tell you, you and people like you exhaust me, utterly, with your arrogant demands that I re-litigate my very existence to you every single day, and with the utterly banal and stupid arguments that you make at me.

When I make a "you" statement to you, that's a ****ing hint to take it personally and to absorb what I say and consider changing your ways, and you have failed to do so repeatedly. It betrays an utter disregard for me as a person who knows things, and indicates to me that you don't give the first **** about anything I really think. You're trying to use me as a prop to get your way, not as the expert which I am. You're talking over me.

--The way that men talk over women all the time, by the way, so that's stupidly validating in a disgusting manner.--

So no, I'm not answering your "one more question," because I don't think you want to integrate my answer into your understanding of the world. You certainly haven't done that yet with a single word I have written to you. You're playing stupid "gotcha" games and I am done with you.

Dismissed.