Cory Ellis 1:12 seconds clock

[biscoe]

Yep. It doesn't work in Ultimate Frisbee either.

It really depends on the standard you are attempting to hold things to. I would say that for the vast majority of us it actually functions OK, not great, but OK. Players with very few exceptions act in good faith. Literally thousands of events are held each year and i can't recall a single one (I'm sure someone will correct me on that) where a call or the lack thereof was the defining moment of who won the event... maybe this year's USADGC but that ventures into the pretty much impossible to officiate world of step/jump putts which would not be any better with officials than it is without. Our somewhat newfound ability to view every shot from home brings the question "what is good enough?" Currently we have repeat offenders on the time issue being warned occasionally and even more occasionally penalized. It seems to have helped with Gannon but not with Nikko.

We are still a long ways out from there being paid officials roaming the course with every card. It will not be a pleasant job. I had a job in college refereeing intramural basketball- I lasted exactly one game and you could not pay me enough to do it again.

Inevitably there will be a big event where a call/non-call is the deciding factor. While that is unfortunate, it also occurs in refereed sports from time to time and has not been the downfall of any of them. Does this mean we should not strive to improve? Of course not... but the path to improvement is not particularly clear at this time if the players are unwilling to police themselves at least to some degree.

 

[biscoe]

oops

 

[_MTL_]

I was the official with the card and remember this moment. I honestly timed Corey on this shot and got 29.5 seconds.

A few things to remember:

1. The clock does not start until the playing area is clear. There were people EVERYWHERE. This is also very subjective.
2. The clock does not starting until you have had a chance to determine your lie. This is allowed due to the footing and obtaining a legal stance. When he was kneeling down and other things, that is what is doing.

Just like balls and strikes in baseball umpires and holding in the NFL, this stuff has subjectiveness to it.

Not a single person on the card nor anyone officially involved with the event mentioned a word about this.

 

[robdeforge]

that's why it's relevant to point out the 'spirit of the game' clause

"Disc golf is typically played without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the player to show sportsmanship, integrity, consideration for other players, and to abide by the Official Rules of Disc Golf. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be.

Make the call. Accept the call. It's not personal; it's the rules. That is the spirit of the game of disc golf."

I think if a player is making an honest attempt to follow the rules, but there's an instance such as Cory had, that the first 3 items in my emphasis are more important in those cases. There is enough left open for interpretation here where it can be acceptable to not call 30 seconds on every player each time they take >30.1 seconds.

I've never understood the spirit of the game section to mean "don't call an obvious rules violation on somebody if they didn't mean to violate the rule". Partly because that would bring intent into the equation which would make rules enforcement impossible. But also mainly because of the section, that you included in your quote, that says that the game relies on the players to "abide by the Official Rules of Disc Golf".

 

[seedlings]

I was the official with the card and remember this moment. I honestly timed Corey on this shot and got 29.5 seconds.

A few things to remember:

1. The clock does not start until the playing area is clear. There were people EVERYWHERE. This is also very subjective.
2. The clock does not starting until you have had a chance to determine your lie. This is allowed due to the footing and obtaining a legal stance. When he was kneeling down and other things, that is what is doing.

Just like balls and strikes in baseball umpires and holding in the NFL, this stuff has subjectiveness to it.

Not a single person on the card nor anyone officially involved with the event mentioned a word about this.

Excellent! So your clock didn't start until after he grabbed discs from his bag. All of the back and forth switching positions and looking for openings before that was part of determining his lie.

Edit: Simon had just thrown a couple of feet from Corey's lie. Was the area clear when Simon threw?

 

[ballgolfconvert]

It really depends on the standard you are attempting to hold things to. I would say that for the vast majority of us it actually functions OK, not great, but OK. Players with very few exceptions act in good faith. Literally thousands of events are held each year and i can't recall a single one (I'm sure someone will correct me on that) where a call or the lack thereof was the defining moment of who won the event... maybe this year's USADGC but that ventures into the pretty much impossible to officiate world of step/jump putts which would not be any better with officials than it is without. Our somewhat newfound ability to view every shot from home brings the question "what is good enough?" Currently we have repeat offenders on the time issue being warned occasionally and even more occasionally penalized. It seems to have helped with Gannon but not with Nikko.

We are still a long ways out from there being paid officials roaming the course with every card. It will not be a pleasant job. I had a job in college refereeing intramural basketball- I lasted exactly one game and you could not pay me enough to do it again.

Inevitably there will be a big event where a call/non-call is the deciding factor. While that is unfortunate, it also occurs in refereed sports from time to time and has not been the downfall of any of them. Does this mean we should not strive to improve? Of course not... but the path to improvement is not particularly clear at this time if the players are unwilling to police themselves at least to some degree.

Takes us right back to only penalizing players when their group is out of position and stop timing when they are back in position. This would make it doable for officials in high visibility events.

For the players who feel they have to play faster to make up for a slow player, don't. Take your normal time and if the group falls behind then the guilty party will get timed and be forced to throw faster. Problem solved for everyone.

 

[Dingus]

2. The clock does not starting until you have had a chance to determine your lie. This is allowed due to the footing and obtaining a legal stance. When he was kneeling down and other things, that is what is doing.

I have two issues with your interpretation of this rule.

1. The rule does not say that he has to actually determine his lie, it just says "have had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at and determine the lie". If the field was not clear to throw, he would still have that time to arrive and determine the lie. He shouldn't get to wait until people are clear, and THEN have time to arrive and determine the lie.

3. Determining the lie, in my opinion (subject to be wrong), has nothing to do with finding your footing. The rules state that the lie is "a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc." To determine this lie, all you need to do is establish where the rear edge of the marker disc is, and where the line of play is. Footing has nothing to do with it. Once the player has observed the position of the marker disc and the line of play, they must establish their legal stance and throw inside the 30 seconds.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Can we agree it's about:
1) frequency?
2) context?

The problem isn't the occasional occurrence for difficult situations/lies. It's the habitual occurrence for ordinary circumstances.

Unfortunately, finding a way to weave that wording into the rules ...not so easy. :\

Just as calling 30 sec on someone who's dealing with a tough situation is unsportsmanlike, so is constantly pushing it to the limit with a myriad disc swaps and range checks for damn near every shot.

Last thing I want to watch is a bunch of players who remind me of batters stepping out of the box to adjust their batting gloves after every pitch. :wall:

Begin to asses your situation as you arrive. Keep your bag close so your equipment is readily at hand. Do your calculations, make your choice, throw your shot, and wait for the applause.

 

[kyflash]

Excellent! So your clock didn't start until after he grabbed discs from his bag. All of the back and forth switching positions and looking for openings before that was part of determining his lie.

Edit: Simon had just thrown a couple of feet from Corey's lie. Was the area clear when Simon threw?

Simon's lie was behind Corey's. Corey had to wait until Simon finished before he could "determine his lie"

It really did feel like a long time, to me, as Ellis prepared to make his throw. I understand the situation... the stress of being so close to winning, the horrible lie, etc. But it really seemed like too much time and that he was extra slow even in that situation. Just my $0.02.

It would have been legit to give him a warning after that.

Championship Sunday, Lead Card score tied or a one shot difference.
No one playing behind the lead card. Probably the most difficult lie the card saw all day.
This would have been a Richard move to issue a warning.

 

[gwsmallwood]

You want to know the difference between Nikko's penalty for excessive time and Cory's excessive time? Here it is:

Nikko never got called/penalized in the U.S. He got called on it/penalized in Europe.
Cory was playing is a tournament in the U.S.

Ergo....tournaments/players in the U.S. aren't calling rules violations...they look the other way. They might complain later, but they don't DO anything about it. Tournaments/players in Europe DO take action and call penalties.

If Cory had played in the Europe Open and taken that long, I'd guess he would have been called on it. But we will never know. And if Covid hadn't kept U.S. players from playing in Europe, Nikko might have been called on excessive time a lot sooner.

Excessive time and foot faults (I'd bet many of those jump putts are actually illegal - but they are more difficult to prove) are just two violations that seem to be ignored in the U.S..

I don't like the time violation rule to begin with. They don't have them in the PGA. I agree with you that most of the jump putts are probably illegal. They either need to make jump putting illegal or waive that rule outside circle 1.

 

[BillFleming]

You probably don't have a depth perception issue as much as you haven't, as you noted your cardmate did, taken time to practice and become good at using it. This can date back to habits before you can remember that were out of your control and may have put your development of the skill behind. You have poor distance judgment, but not poor depth perception - unless you have a vision impairment or neurological condition you're not aware of or have not mentioned. Depth perception is a combination of internal utility of, predominantly, the use of binocular vision, with some minor support from parallax and the interaction of straight lines with the horizon.

I have poor depth perception, almost none, having only one actual eye. I probably judge distance, by your description of your skills, better than you. There is no way, barring an unmentioned medical condition that you possess worse depth perception than someone without binocular vision.

Sorry random ramble. Just something that I tend to note as someone with one eye because... Well... 15+ years of people around me saying they have poor depth perception every few weeks or months. Lol.

Okay, next time I see my eye doctor I'll tell him his test for depth perception issues doesn't work.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

I don't like the time violation rule to begin with. They don't have them in the PGA. I agree with you that most of the jump putts are probably illegal. They either need to make jump putting illegal or waive that rule outside circle 1.

They do have time violations in the PGA. The rules on them just make much more sense.

 

[gwsmallwood]

They do have time violations in the PGA. The rules on them just make much more sense.

I just looked and it appears you're right. Last time I looked there were no rules, but slow play was 'discouraged'.

I think we should probably adopt something like the PGA, but I do think there should be slightly more time allotted for disc golfers. There are more variables to shot selection to deal with. Plus, I think part of what makes disc golf so attractive to people is the fact that it's not as rigid and uptight as ball golf...

 

[Rastnav]

I have two issues with your interpretation of this rule.

1. The rule does not say that he has to actually determine his lie, it just says "have had a reasonable amount of time to arrive at and determine the lie". If the field was not clear to throw, he would still have that time to arrive and determine the lie. He shouldn't get to wait until people are clear, and THEN have time to arrive and determine the lie.

3. Determining the lie, in my opinion (subject to be wrong), has nothing to do with finding your footing. The rules state that the lie is "a rectangle that is 20cm wide and 30cm deep, centered on the line of play behind the rear edge of the marker disc." To determine this lie, all you need to do is establish where the rear edge of the marker disc is, and where the line of play is. Footing has nothing to do with it. Once the player has observed the position of the marker disc and the line of play, they must establish their legal stance and throw inside the 30 seconds.

In order to determine the lie, you have to be able to take a legal stance. In a case where taking a legal stance may not be possible (because you are obstructed in reaching the lie) you haven't determined the lie until you have tested to see if you can take a stance.

In addition, in a difficult lie, the player has the option of taking optional relief (with a penalty stroke). The lie from which you will throw is not determined until you have made this decision.

The "reasonable amount of time to reach and determine" standard is thus subjective. This doesn't mean that it is arbitrary, but it does mean people can you use judgement to realize that the lie in the middle of the fairway allows for less total elasped time to throw from than the lie deep in the bushes.

You can see an in-depth conversation about this in the rules question sub-forum.

 

[seedlings]

Simon's lie was behind Corey's. Corey had to wait until Simon finished before he could "determine his lie"




Championship Sunday, Lead Card score tied or a one shot difference.
No one playing behind the lead card. Probably the most difficult lie the card saw all day.
This would have been a Richard move to issue a warning.

I agree Simon had to clear first. There was over double the 30s after Simon cleared. If it is a Richard move to issue warning, then it is a Richard move to have the rule at all.

By that reasoning (insert circumstances), it's also acceptable to occasionally throw from in front of, or to the side of the lie - as long as that person shows integrity toward other players.

 

[art_vandelay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohDB5gbtaEQ

this is what some of you sound like.

 

[Dingus]

In order to determine the lie, you have to be able to take a legal stance. In a case where taking a legal stance may not be possible (because you are obstructed in reaching the lie) you haven't determined the lie until you have tested to see if you can take a stance.

This reads as false to me. The original place of the disc determines "the lie". If you arrive at "the lie" and determine that it is unplayable, you may mark a "NEW lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target". The lie was already determined, and a new lie may then be established. Rule 802.03 only states you have reasonable time to determine THE lie, not any NEW lies that you may care to establish.

 

[Dcinmd]

We are still a long ways out from there being paid officials roaming the course with every card. It will not be a pleasant job. I had a job in college refereeing intramural basketball- I lasted exactly one game and you could not pay me enough to do it again.

Same, I last about 6 weeks as a youth soccer referee. Not enough money in the world for me to put up with that abuse, from the parents.

 

[ChrisWoj]

This reads as false to me. The original place of the disc determines "the lie". If you arrive at "the lie" and determine that it is unplayable, you may mark a "NEW lie that is on the line of play, farther from the target". The lie was already determined, and a new lie may then be established. Rule 802.03 only states you have reasonable time to determine THE lie, not any NEW lies that you may care to establish.

Crucial here seems to be the use of phrasing as "THE" lie. Any new lie that you care to establish, would then be THE lie. In the definitions in the rulebook: "The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw."

The space immediately behind where the disc has come to rest would not be the lie if it is not the legal space which the player is going to throw from. It would seem to me that what is reffered to here and in the rules as "a new lie" is in actuality THE lie.

 

[Dingus]

Crucial here seems to be the use of phrasing as "THE" lie. Any new lie that you care to establish, would then be THE lie. In the definitions in the rulebook: "The lie is the place on the playing surface upon which the player takes a stance in order to throw."

The space immediately behind where the disc has come to rest would not be the lie if it is not the legal space which the player is going to throw from. It would seem to me that what is reffered to here and in the rules as "a new lie" is in actuality THE lie.

I am fine with this reading. That would create the following scenario. Player arrives at thrown disc and observes the disc and the line of play, thus determining the lie. 30 second limit starts. Player subsequently decides that the lie is unplayable, and establishes a new lie, thus restarting the 30 seconds from the new lie.

This would also mean that if you arrive at the lie and determine it, fiddle around with your stance for 45 seconds deciding to take relief or not, and ultimately throw from the original lie, you have committed an excessive time violation.