Cory Ellis 1:12 seconds clock

[ballgolfconvert]

Formally warning everyone we've exceeded the time limit for discussing the subject.

Next violation is gonna cost everyone a stroke.

No, no, no. Given the additional distractions that have appeared, the initial warning is no longer in effect. You need to start the whole process over again.

 

[seedlings]

There's also the Gannon Buhr playing his lie from on top of the spotter disc bag it landed on. He asked if he could play it from on the bag. "They" said yes. I hear Brodie Smith, so assume it was the cardmates.

http://youtu.be/tDd_UbYWm0U

 

[_MTL_]

Thanks for the insight man!

Just wondering if there was any extra PDGA guidance about the application of the rule?

And a big thanks for volunteering to officiate! You're a class act.

Appreciate the kudos, but I work for the PDGA, so def not a volunteer!

The guidance is as I described - the rule says the clock doesn't start until the player has had time to arrive and determine their lie. So a blind shot around a corner, the player can walk up to the corner and see where the basket is and walk back and determine where their plant foot should be all before the clock starts.

 

[Dingus]

The guidance is as I described - the rule says the clock doesn't start until the player has had time to arrive and determine their lie. So a blind shot around a corner, the player can walk up to the corner and see where the basket is and walk back and determine where their plant foot should be all before the clock starts.

This is a correct statement, but can you see where you did not apply the rule correctly for Ellis? The clock starts as soon as you can determine where the shot landed and what the line of play is. Determining whether you have good footing or not has nothing to do with it.

 

[_MTL_]

This is a correct statement, but can you see where you did not apply the rule correctly for Ellis? The clock starts as soon as you can determine where the shot landed and what the line of play is. Determining whether you have good footing or not has nothing to do with it.

I'll disagree that I applied the rule incorrectly, but I'll agree that determining your footing is not part of the rule.

I interpreted the situation that he was determining his lie as he continuing was looking up and around the rough he was it. There is not a set amount of time for this and as I alluded in my OP, it is very much a ball / strike conversation. It's going to be different to everyone.

 

[Dingus]

2. The clock does not starting until you have had a chance to determine your lie. This is allowed due to the footing and obtaining a legal stance. When he was kneeling down and other things, that is what is doing.

I interpreted the situation that he was determining his lie as he continuing was looking up and around the rough he was it. There is not a set amount of time for this and as I alluded in my OP, it is very much a ball / strike conversation. It's going to be different to everyone.

From your first post it was that he was getting footing and obtaining a legal stance. Now you are saying he was trying to see where the line of play was? I will give it to you that if he was simply trying to ascertain the line of play he was entitled to the time. I don't think you really believe he was taking all that time for that purpose though.

 

[_MTL_]

From your first post it was that he was getting footing and obtaining a legal stance. Now you are saying he was trying to see where the line of play was? I will give it to you that if he was simply trying to ascertain the line of play he was entitled to the time. I don't think you really believe he was taking all that time for that purpose though.

First post was def poorly worded. Thanks for allowing me the chance to clarify.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

First post was def poorly worded. Thanks for allowing me the chance to clarify.

Let's pretend the first thing he did was use a range finder for the distance and then walked around to determine his line of play. Does the act of using the rangefinder make the clock start? Or is the act of a using a rangefinder part of determining the lie in this instance. I ask because i have been told using a range finder is not part of determining the lie, but part of the 30 seconds, under the rules. So how does it work if the range finder is used before determining the line of play, etc. Is their an order that is to be followed so that determining the distance isn't applied to the determining the lie time?

 

[Dingus]

Let's pretend the first thing he did was use a range finder for the distance and then walked around to determine his line of play. Does the act of using the rangefinder make the clock start? Or is the act of a using a rangefinder part of determining the lie in this instance. I ask because i have been told using a range finder is not part of determining the lie, but part of the 30 seconds, under the rules. So how does it work if the range finder is used before determining the line of play, etc. Is their an order that is to be followed so that determining the distance isn't applied to the determining the lie time?

A player could be using a rangefinder at any time before the 30 seconds started. For instance if the field of play is not cleared or if the other players that are out have not yet thrown. I would say that using a rangefinder is good evidence that a reasonable amount of time has been given to determine the lie. Not many players are using a rangefinder without knowing where the lie is. But using the rangefinder isn't a condition that automatically starts the 30 seconds.

 

[seedlings]

I think almost every oddball time scenario in this thread, including rangefinders, has come true at the Mid America Open yesterday. Nothing was called, because of interpretations and benefit of doubt. Commentators (DGN live) were not impressed with speed of play. There were very many tough lies and small lanes in the last round. Did I mention rangefinders?


Edit: I'd love to watch a play through with commentary from officials on how the clock was interpreted.

 

[biscoe]

I think almost every oddball time scenario in this thread, including rangefinders, has come true at the Mid America Open yesterday. Nothing was called, because of interpretations and benefit of doubt. Commentators (DGN live) were not impressed with speed of play. There were very many tough lies and small lanes in the last round. Did I mention rangefinders?


Edit: I'd love to watch a play through with commentary from officials on how the clock was interpreted.

Incorrect- nothing was called because the players call nothing in general. No interpretation or benefit of the doubt required.

 

[_MTL_]

Nothing was called, because of interpretations and benefit of doubt.

Benefit of the doubt is NOT this. It's not "we aren't sure, so you get best scenario" or "eh, this is close, you get best call."

Benefit of the doubt is only a tiebreaking vote in the event the card is split on a decision.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

Benefit of the doubt is NOT this. It's not "we aren't sure, so you get best scenario" or "eh, this is close, you get best call."

Benefit of the doubt is only a tiebreaking vote in the event the card is split on a decision.

Maybe how it is suppose to be, but in practically the players already give the benefit of the doubt when voicing their decision. I always try to find a reason to side with the player on the close calls, if no reason exists, I then tell them the bad news.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

A player could be using a rangefinder at any time before the 30 seconds started. For instance if the field of play is not cleared or if the other players that are out have not yet thrown. I would say that using a rangefinder is good evidence that a reasonable amount of time has been given to determine the lie. Not many players are using a rangefinder without knowing where the lie is. But using the rangefinder isn't a condition that automatically starts the 30 seconds.

Even when it was a players turn to throw? Plenty of times you are unable to approach your approximate lie until it is actually your turn to throw. So i can walk up to my disc. Comfortably take a distance from outside the bushes, then get into the bushes to figure the line of play and once I've decided then the 30 second clock starts? if so, in the quest of fairness shouldn't all players be able to incorporate the range finder into the determining the lie phase before the 30 seconds starts? I think so.

And while we are on the determining the lie question, doesn't determining the line of play mean knowing where the basket and hazards,/obstacle lie? i don't think it applies as written to picking our which set of branches one wants to throw through, etc. Although i think it should. Again, I think the right call was made in the Corey incident, but I am not so sure that he didn't violate the rules in spirit.

"Determining Your Lie" should incorporate:

Finding your distance (encouraged to do so before turn, if possible)

Confirming path to basket and which obstacles, etc exist on the path.

Deciding on the stance, shot type and selecting a disc for the shot.

 

[Dingus]

"Determining Your Lie" should incorporate:
.

But it doesn't. All it includes is seeing where your disc landed and observing the line of play.

 

[ballgolfconvert]

But it doesn't. All it includes is seeing where your disc landed and observing the line of play.

Either you can do more than determine the line to the hole or Corey had a time violation (which only means something if he was on the clock). Not many people here feel he should have received a violation (warning or penalty) so there is obviously something missing from the rules. He was doing much more than observing his line of play, as he should have been able to, but the rules say he shouldn't be able to.

the contradictions need to be addressed in the rules, period.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Benefit of the doubt is NOT this. It's not "we aren't sure, so you get best scenario" or "eh, this is close, you get best call."

Benefit of the doubt is only a tiebreaking vote in the event the card is split on a decision.

People like to forget about context, and situational appropriateness. Hell, sometimes they ignore what the certain words actually mean altogether.

It's way too convenient to misappropriate rules to situations where they're not even applicable, simply because people can't be bothered to learn where things are/aren't applicable.





*twists ankle stepping off his soap box*

 

[seedlings]

People like to forget about context, and situational appropriateness. Hell, sometimes they ignore what the certain words actually mean altogether.

It's way too convenient to misappropriate rules to situations where they're not even applicable, simply because people can't be bothered to learn where things are/aren't applicable.





*twists ankle stepping off his soap box*

From your perspective, are there any rules in the PDGA book that apply regardless of the lie or how close the score is at the end of the tournament? How would you draw the line?

Same question to rules committee authors.

I ask with genuine desire to learn. I'm not going to be the guy at the tournament who calls something that most tournament players will disregard.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

From your perspective, are there any rules in the PDGA book that apply regardless of the lie or how close the score is at the end of the tournament? How would you draw the line?

Same question to rules committee authors.

I ask with genuine desire to learn. I'm not going to be the guy at the tournament who calls something that most tournament players will disregard.

Here's can serious response to your serious question(s).

My post was about understanding the specificity of the rules, and developing an understanding of when a given time is (or isn't) applicable. You respond asking a vague question about what rules apply to every situation. I'm zigging, and you're zagging.

The rules apply, regardless when in the round/tournament something occurs. Human nature being what it is, when and how players choose to enforce them can vary greatly.

Bottom line: read the PDGA rule book, and figure out for yourself, what's applicable to a given situation, and decide for yourself what you choose to call on other players and when.

The best way to develop a feel for the game is to develop it yourself. I developed a feel for it by playing organized leagues and sanctioned tournaments, and having conversations with more experienced players during rounds.

I'm not going to try to spoonfeed that to anyone via the interwebz.

PDGA Official Rules of Disc Golf
Last updated: Wednesday, March 2, 2022 - 22

 

[BogeyNoMore]

All I can add is "You're never wrong if you're legitimately enforcing a valid rule."