Intentionally Limiting Supply, or just poor quality control?

[SirRaph]

Let me first say that I work in the manufacturing sector, so when I say "quality control", I don't necessarily mean dimples and flashing. I mean a lack of consistency from one run of plastic/molds to another.

Second, while I'm targeting Innova with this thread, they're by no means the only disc manufacturer that struggles with inconsistency.

I'm sure everyone is familiar with Steve Jobs' (Apple) reputation for limiting production during initial releases of a new product. Thereby increasing demand for a product, and stretching shopping lines around the block whenever a new iPhone/Pad/Pod is brought to market.

Now transpose that phenomenon to disc golf. CFR discs like glow leopards, translucent champion discs, gummy champ, champ rocs, etc. etc. etc. These discs are obviously limited in production to increase demand.

But what about the rest of Innova's lot? How many times have you or a buddy bought 3 or 5 of the same disc, simply because you fear that the next run won't fly the same? And in some cases, never even get around to using those discs.
Do you think that this is done intentionally, or no?

 

[Technohic]

If its not intentional now, I would say from a business standpoint they might want to consider it.

 

[billnchristy]

I just cannot believe that plastic that was created for the intention of water bottles, childrens toys and sex toys just doesn't have consistant aerodynamic properties.

There should be some kind of government probe.

 

[jasonc]

Yes, of course it is intentional. Maybe the old school CE plastic was not intentional, but they certainly learned a lot about demand for specific runs of plastic from that experience.

Just take a quick look at the options in plastic now. How many years went by with only DX for sale? Now you get to pick from DX, Pro, R-Pro, Champion, Star, XG Champ, CFR, etc....

Like most companies that produce anything, they will keep on developing new products that they believe will help turn a profit. Eagles and Teebirds are everywhere because people keep buying em.

Also keep in mind that most discs are purchased by chuckers and noobs who will throw their brand new tye-dyed champ plastic into the lake after 3 rounds and go back to get a brand new one for another $15--$20.

 

[SirRaph]

I just cannot believe that plastic that was created for the intention of water bottles, childrens toys and sex toys just doesn't have consistant aerodynamic properties.

There should be some kind of government probe.

If my sarcasm-ometer is correct, I disagree. Small injection shops, with far less capital than Innova, are able to manufacture knee joints to tolerances of a few microns volumetric, yet disc golf manufacturers aren't able to figure out how to keep the dome on a plastic disc from collapsing during the cooling process.

Buy two boxes of tupperware, same brand, same size, same model, 6 months apart. Now try to fit one of the lids from the first box to one of the tubs from the second. Fit? Thought so.

My question isn't questioning whether consistency is possible, but whether inconsistency is intentional.

 

[solomon.trenton]

i think it is. think about it this way: you throw a disc and loves how it flies party beaten in, no you lose it. you go buy the same disc, same weight but it doesnt fly the same. how many more do you buy trying to find that same disc?

 

[DavidSauls]

As with almost everyone here, I don't know. But I'd guess that it's a matter of costing more to manufacture to tighter specifications, and not worth the expense to do so. Intentional, in that they make a business decision to produce to a only certain tolerance. But not intentional, in the sense that Innova (or anyone else) expects someone to buy 9 172g Star Wraiths to find one identical to the one they lost last year.

But what do I know? There's a whole lot more inconsistency in my arm than in the discs.

 

[garublador]

I'd guess that a little of it, especially with the different blends of plastic, is intentional to try to give people what they want. Some may like one mold on the more or less flexible side and as long as you're wise enough to stock up when you find the ones you like, everyone will get the version of the disc they want.

I don't think they purposely limit the number of "good" versions of a disc they make. What would be the point in making some runs purposely "better" than others? Limiting production on a mold or in a plastic makes some sense, but making a worse version on purpose doesn't. Why get consumers "hooked" on a consumable that you don't plan on making more of?

Comparing Tupperware or precision knee joints to discs is asinine. There's no way they'd get the precision they're getting by using the plastic blends the disc companies use and there's no way disc companies would be able to pass rigidity standards if they used the plastics those companies use. Plus, have you seen how expensive Tupperware is? I'm not dropping $50 on a disc and I know I'm not alone on that.

Disc golf consumers demand inexpensive discs and the PDGA demands as safe of a product as they can get. Precision knee joint consumers demand precision and Tupperware consumers demand longevity at the cost of price. Of course it's possible to manufacture discs in the same way as precision knee joints or Tupperware, but you wouldn't meet the consumer's needs.

 

[skinner21]

I don't think it's intentional. they don't make any money on the after market sales of rare Rocs that go for hundreds. If it was intentioal, why wouldn't they make a special run of 11x Teebirds or something and jack the prices sky high on those?

Personally, I think they're just morons.

 

[billnchristy]

Exactly! I know Lightning pro plastic is rejected medical grade plastic.

Also, how many dies and molds do tupperware go through a month? How many years will Innova keep one going? It is just like the aftermarket door parts and stuff you can get for 1960s cars, they are pressed on the same tooling as was done in the 60s and are so sloppy they no longer even represent the original product.

Innova is just now replacing molds that were 10+ years old, how many thousands of pieces of plastic were pushed through that?

 

[Frank Delicious]

I don't think consistency is on the top of the list of things disc manufacturers worry about, they are too busy worrying about keeping prices down and meeting PDGA specs.

Also comparing disc manufacturing to knee joint parts is pretty bad. Knee joint parts need to be very precise, discs don't.

edit: should not have left the reply window open while I got distracted by work. Garu said everything I just said. GJ making me look like a copy cat, jerk.

 

[skinner21]

Knee joint parts need to be very precise, discs don't.

maybe for you discs don't have to be precise, but when your form is as erratic and flawed as mine is, you have to have consistency somewhere.

 

[ChaseTheAce]

On the bright side, you can enjoy one mold that flies differently from run to run, allowing you to cover a variety of shots with 3 variations of the same disc.

I like this for Rocs and TLs. I have TLs that are more stable than 11x CAL Teebirds, TLs that fly like TLs, and TLs that are flipper than Leopards.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Has anyone brought up Vibram yet? B/c they have good consistency b/c they buy better plastic plus already have experience making a consistent product. Does anyone know if Innova or DC or whoever have like real R&D people on staff that are experienced in plastics and creating consistent products? I always got the impression most disc manufacturers didn't really employ people like that.

edit: To illustrate look up those old gateway videos showing how a disc was made. They just kept the plastic pellets in a barrel and to keep them from getting contaminated they covered them with a cardboard board.

 

[ChaseTheAce]

maybe for you discs don't have to be precise, but when your form is as erratic and flawed as mine is, you have to have consistency somewhere.

if your form is erratic and flawed, how are you even able to recognize vague differences in flight characteristics?

which molds in particular are inconsistent for you?

 

[skinner21]

Chase, I was joking.

 

[Frank Delicious]

if your form is erratic and flawed, how are you even able to recognize vague differences in flight characteristics?

which molds in particular are inconsistent for you?

come on man, that was clearly a joke.

 

[jubuttib]

MVP shows that it is entirely possible to get consistent plastic, but they have an family deal going on there. Other companies really seem to mostly use random scrap plastic. If they really did get their plastic custom made for them the resulting discs would be more consistent. Hopefully disc golf will someday reach a level where disc sales are so high that this is indeed an option.

Though Innova has shown that they can make pretty consistently high quality stuff when they do CFR discs. They probably try to reserve the good stuff for those, as well as bring in a "master molder" to do the job properly, and overall pay more attention to the process. And this shows in the price.

 

[kyflash]

I don't think it's intentional. they don't make any money on the after market sales of rare Rocs that go for hundreds. If it was intentioal, why wouldn't they make a special run of 11x Teebirds or something and jack the prices sky high on those?

Personally, I think they're just morons.

I don't think it is intentional. I think it is engineering apathy on Innovas part.

Discraft does not have the wide variations in their discs. They have variations from different type plastics of the same mold, but they list that. The Avenger in x is either a 1.5 or 1.6 (can't remember which) stability rating while the same mold in z is a 1.8 I think. They recognize that the type of plastic can and does affect stability and it is stamped on the disc.
Gateway has tried many different blends of plastic that it is very hard to fall in love with many of their discs as you may not be able to replace it.

Great point that Innova will not make any more after the disc retails.

Also, after your 172 Star Wraith (or whatever disc your throw from whatever maker) has hit a tree or two, you will not be able to buy another one that has the same flight that your used disc has evolved into.

 

[Frank Delicious]

Discraft does not have the wide variations in their discs.

Have you never thrown a spectra, crush, tracker, or flash before?