2015 Ledgestone NT presented by Discraft

[DiscJunkie]

Nate,
Thanks for putting on this high-profile event.
Be thankful for all the arm-chair QB'ing from the attitude that it proves that you have done something significant to catch their attention.
We can all tell you how we think it should have been done, but you actually did it. In the end, nobody was harmed by the TD'ing of this tourney, and a lot of people actually made some money, thanks to you!!
You're obviously a smart guy. You're going to eventually sit down with other smart people and say "What did we do right? and What can we improve?"
REALLY looking forward to bigger and better things going forward...

 

[blackcatsmith]

I have done my best to not comment on this thread but I just have to say a few things after reading some comments.



We had a situation with two spotters and that was our fault - we should have educated them better.

We had over 2000 people in the park - it became hard to traffic that many people.

We didn't change any format for the final day. This statement is completely false.

The Lake Eureka temp course was designed to be very challenging and to test players beyond their limits. We failed to do that on probably 4 or 5 holes by not balancing the risk versus reward in a way that we wanted to accomplish.



We had over 20 people out there. We had 15 people doing payout for am/pros combined and then another 5 working on the raffle. There are only so many volunteers....



This is honestly the most disheartening post I have ever seen on this site. I would recommend everyone reach out to this person directly and say something to him. We cannot have uneducated people saying stuff like this - it will burn out TD's and will keep people from running high profile events. This comment is truly EMBARRASSING and this person should apologize immediately. Silver platter? I spent 1600 hours on this event, 1300 of which was spent fundraising. Discraft was a great supporter of the event, but I had to raise $140,000 on top of what Discraft provided for the event. Whoever this person is should truly be ashamed of themselves.

I'm ashamed... and I didn't even write it. On behalf of disc golf, the internet and humanity in their entireties- I apologize.

 

[araytx]

A case can be made that a disc does not have "rights" when traversing OB during part of its flight and is subject to whatever poor luck befalls it while in/over OB territory. Now, if the interference occurs when a spectator is inbounds, that's another matter.

I get that. In baseball, if the player reaches into the stands he's on his own; there is no spectator interference. If the fan reaches across onto the field to try and catch a ball, then there is spectator interference and the umpire has broad discretion to call whatever he thinks might have happened, including placing runners wherever he thinks they might have normally ended up. So I get it, at least the essence.

I just don't like it, particularly in cases like these where there are so many forced throws over OB. People who know me know I am the quintessential conservative player. I'll take the longer route anyhyzer over safe ground rather than a high hyzer over OB, because it's just my DNA. At Ledgestone there were several shots where that wasn't a choice. You HAD to carry OB even if sometimes only for a hundred to couple hundred feet.

 

[Aestheticflight]

I have done my best to not comment on this thread but I just have to say a few things after reading some comments.



We had a situation with two spotters and that was our fault - we should have educated them better.

We had over 2000 people in the park - it became hard to traffic that many people.

We didn't change any format for the final day. This statement is completely false.

The Lake Eureka temp course was designed to be very challenging and to test players beyond their limits. We failed to do that on probably 4 or 5 holes by not balancing the risk versus reward in a way that we wanted to accomplish.



We had over 20 people out there. We had 15 people doing payout for am/pros combined and then another 5 working on the raffle. There are only so many volunteers....



This is honestly the most disheartening post I have ever seen on this site. I would recommend everyone reach out to this person directly and say something to him. We cannot have uneducated people saying stuff like this - it will burn out TD's and will keep people from running high profile events. This comment is truly EMBARRASSING and this person should apologize immediately. Silver platter? I spent 1600 hours on this event, 1300 of which was spent fundraising. Discraft was a great supporter of the event, but I had to raise $140,000 on top of what Discraft provided for the event. Whoever this person is should truly be ashamed of themselves.

..........................................................................




I want to thank you for all you do for the sport. I 've never run a major tournament and I can only imagine the mountain of work. My comments were not intended to hurt anyone and I hope they don't feel too harsh. It is your right and responsibility to put on a challenging and entertaining event as you see it. You had a huge load to carry and you ended with delivering the biggest tournament ever. Well done. It's only natural that others will disagree with choices, that's life. But, I recognize that the choices were made as was your right. I'm fairly certain that most players appreciate your hard work. You can't please em all. This site is a great place to give an opinion, a forum for discussion . Some people have opinions that are less than informed and enlightened. That's normal...Don't take those too much to heart. Happy trails

 

[Pbmercil]

Let me see if I have this right. Final Nine, it's all about Simon vs. Paul for the first & second places. All five players birdie hole #1. JohnE was in a battle for 3rd place with two others and on the second hole, the other two have laid up on their second shot. With all of this "fair" stroke and distance OB ropes (that some are calling it), that "makes you take the risk to get the reward" or "be punished if you don't execute", JohnE decides he can make the green and goes for it hoping to gain a stroke on the other two guys. He throws and actually does execute going for the green on his second shot and SPECTATOR(S) in the gallery, some of whom are sitting on their chairs and stools within inches to maybe a couple feet of the OB line (and if I know galleries, some of whom aren't even watching every shot closely, maybe just their favorite player) prevent his disc from landing in bounds where it rightfully should have. Now, there is no accounting for what might happen once a disc hits ground; we've all seen a great shot catch an edge and do something crazy -- but SPECTATOR interference prevents a layup birdie and an outside chance for eagle if he can throw it in. Do I have that right?

Hmmm. Do we still think all of that's fair??? Not sure I do. Sounds like we need a rule for spectator interference like baseball has. That situation was really not the tourney's fault. It was the spectator's. A spectator not being alert and not being in the right place cost him a chance like that in a big tournament. WOW. I know a lot of disc golfers who would have been worse. Well, maybe not. They've never been in a spot like that before.

By the way, I never found the actual final nine caddy book.

I'm not sure opening the can of worms of approximating lies from spectator interference is a good idea. There are plenty of times where accidental interference helps the players too. Remember Ricky hitting that camera guy at the European Open? Don' get me wrong, its a terrible situation for JohnE, and it would be great if it could be avoided. But I think approximating lies turns into a logistical nightmare in actual practice.

 

[oddjob]

The video coverage was top notch, thanks for making it available. Enjoyed Dana contributing in the final 9.

 

[teemkey]

I spent 1600 hours on this event, 1300 of which was spent fundraising.

You may have a future in politics if you want it.

 

[krupicka]

When I got up to JohnEs disc, I asked if it hit anyone and the multiple spectators standing right there stated no that it landed in between a group of four or five. Someone else reported to JohnE's wife later that someone had indeed been hit. I have no idea what actually happened. I wish we had people further back so there would be no question, but unfortunately to JohnE he was convinced that it hit someone and that prevented him from making what might have been a spectacular shot. That definitely affected him for the rest of the final 9. It did not help that on the previous hole JohnE threw long on his first throw and hit a spectator OB (that one had no chance of coming back IB IMO).

 

[Matt B.]

When I got up to JohnEs disc, I asked if it hit anyone and the multiple spectators standing right there stated no that it landed in between a group of four or five. Someone else reported to JohnE's wife later that someone had indeed been hit. I have no idea what actually happened. I wish we had people further back so there would be no question, but unfortunately to JohnE he was convinced that it hit someone and that prevented him from making what might have been a spectacular shot. That definitely affected him for the rest of the final 9. It did not help that on the previous hole JohnE threw long on his first throw and hit a spectator OB (that one had no chance of coming back IB IMO).

All you can do is have another set of ropes for spectators, or an army of volunteers, or both. None of that is likely. Did these spectators magically appear after the disc left his hand? They were an obstacle, it was a Final 9 with a gallery, everyone knew that. He threw to the wrong spot.

 

[IHearChains]

Originally Posted by IHearChains
"Maple Hill 5 -- you can see lots of deuces by people with a RHFH hyzer, very tough to even get a three with any other shot. Although there is a route through the woods with RHBH, it is nearly impossible to get there for a deuce putt. Video of this years event shows Feldberg taking a 5 trying to go that way while cardmates deuce it easily with RHFH hyzer."

but if you DON'T have the shot for the hole (and honestly, don't discount a turnover shot, it's only 280ish), you can STILL suck it up, go right and have a pretty simple 3, or at worst, a 4.

I was sort of under the impression that the tee was elevated on Eureka 17. being that it is flat, there's very little chance for anything but a roller to work for a lefty.

Yeah I imagined Melton would park that hole with a LHFH hyzer, but I see he took a 6. He's got maybe the best LHFH I've seen. Not sure how it played out for him, did he take penalties from the tee I assume? If so, I take back everything I said before.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

I have done my best to not comment on this thread but I just have to say a few things after reading some comments.

We didn't change any format for the final day. This statement is completely false.

I had heard something to the effect that the Masters and/or GM were told that they'd be included in the final 9 and then nixed on Sunday morning. If I was wrong i do apologize.

The Lake Eureka temp course was designed to be very challenging and to test players beyond their limits. We failed to do that on probably 4 or 5 holes by not balancing the risk versus reward in a way that we wanted to accomplish.

Agree to disagree. And i wasn't alone on this.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

And a chainout ace run that rolls OB on ANY hole should NEVER result in a player carding an 11, or whatever Jeremy scored there.

 

[BionicRib]

This thread is starting to hurt my brain more than the worlds thread.

 

[jvphobic]

And a chainout ace run that rolls OB on ANY hole should NEVER result in a player carding an 11, or whatever Jeremy scored there.

So you don't like USDGC hole 17 either? I could see a chainout going into the water there as well. And then a player being forced to re-tee. How about a chainout and roll away 200 feet at DeLa? I could see an ace turn into a 6 or 7 there as well and that is not including OB.

Here are the facts as I know them, there is a chance I am wrong. Koling went OB on first throw. Second throw from the tee, he chained out his circle 3 ("ace") and went OB. After that, I don't know. It sounds like he kept going for the green, tin cup style. Why not just lay up like most of the other players and take your 3 or 4? Because he wanted to card a better score. Cale recently said it best on FB. Every player earned the OB strokes they took.

And think about the term "chained out". Did he tickle the side of the chains, did he hit high chain, did he hit dead center and spit, did he hit chains and the top of the cage and roll? I don't know, but each would result in a different lie for sure.

 

[1978]

but if you DON'T have the shot for the hole (and honestly, don't discount a turnover shot, it's only 280ish), you can STILL suck it up, go right and have a pretty simple 3, or at worst, a 4.

I was sort of under the impression that the tee was elevated on Eureka 17. being that it is flat, there's very little chance for anything but a roller to work for a lefty.

thumber?

 

[numbernine]

thumber?

A thumber is always the answer

 

[KaBooM]

Random thoughts:

Nate, thank you for putting on this huge event. The overwhelming majority of disc golfers appreciate all that you did. The very nature of internet boards is that people who have a gripe are much more likely to post than folks who were pleased.

In hindsight, were some of the holes too far skewed on the risk/reward spectrum, yes. Adjustments will likely be made. Some of the designed difficulty was compounded by the wind.

Also, big events do have to accept tradeoffs in order to accommodate fans. Crowds can't all be stuffed into the woods. More open holes can't just be distance/hyzer bomb events. That all said, I am not a huge fan of deciding really big tournaments with a handful of "new", "highly tricked up", Safari holes. To often, the golfer that has just spent several days playing the best golf on a handful of real courses (and ones that they have likely put in some quality time to practice) can get derailed by the increased level of "randomness" that accrues by placing a handful of competitors on holes that haven't been part of the competition and haven't been practiced.

 

[Anon]

We NEED a stabilizer vest for our camera walks to smooth out the shakes. And we NEED a better microphone that picks up less handling noise and is preferably wireless. Together this will run us about $2K.

Just to jump in here (because I own/use a Steadicam Pilot)....

I would totally avoid a chest-mounted system unless your camera operator has experience using and - most importantly - balancing and re-balancing the system on the fly. Steadicams can be very finicky and using them effectively seems to be an artform in its own right (I'm terrible at it. Other guys on my team are much better).

One of the handheld gimbals (Movi, etc) would probably be much easier on your budget and your camera person from an operational standpoint. Even a shoulder-mounted ENG style camera setup would help immensely. Full disclosure... I have no idea what kind of cameras you are using and am assuming something relatively small that requires a tripod/mono pod already.

Wireless mics come with their own set of issues that i'm sure you are aware of. I'm guessing terry really needs that freedom of movement when he's out on the course so its probably a necessity.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

So you don't like USDGC hole 17 either? I could see a chainout going into the water there as well. And then a player being forced to re-tee. How about a chainout and roll away 200 feet at DeLa? I could see an ace turn into a 6 or 7 there as well and that is not including OB.

Here are the facts as I know them, there is a chance I am wrong. Koling went OB on first throw. Second throw from the tee, he chained out his circle 3 ("ace") and went OB. After that, I don't know. It sounds like he kept going for the green, tin cup style. Why not just lay up like most of the other players and take your 3 or 4? Because he wanted to card a better score. Cale recently said it best on FB. Every player earned the OB strokes they took.

And think about the term "chained out". Did he tickle the side of the chains, did he hit high chain, did he hit dead center and spit, did he hit chains and the top of the cage and roll? I don't know, but each would result in a different lie for sure.

I'm just not a fan of MORE penalty for going OB.

You go for it and land OB, take the stroke and throw from where it went OB. Why complicate a few holes with this rule and then NOT apply the rule on other holes?

It's artifciallly increasing the challenge because the course is too easy. This cant be the best temp location that Peoria had to offer as far as location, is it? I didn't watch all the rounds to see what the permamnet courses looked like but damn, that was gimmicky on a large scale.


And no, I don't like USDGC hole 17. Or any of those fabricated circus holes. JMO.

 

[1978]

Threads like this are why the Beer Mile Championships are growing faster than disc golf. Although finally I was in on the ground floor of something...running Beer Miles in college XCountry in under 6 minutes. (20 years ago)