right?!
Odd scenario that might come up;
last cash is passed on, and nobody after last cash is a member, so they would essentially owe money in order to "cash"
where would these funds go?
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2018 Competition Rules Changes
- Thread starter krupicka
- Start date
right?!
Odd scenario that might come up;
last cash is passed on, and nobody after last cash is a member, so they would essentially owe money in order to "cash"
where would these funds go?
I would imagine the $10 non-member fee is rolled into the membership payment, so it would be $65 deducted from winnings for a non-member rather than $75. The PDGA has for years made available to TDs a discount code for $10 off membership specifically to give to players who play an event as a non-member and decide to join afterwards. Same principle would apply here.
If a player, am or non-member, doesn't win enough cash to cover a membership (or an upgrade), I'd imagine they simply decline the prize all together. For the am player, last cash (because that's the only likely place where they'll get less than $25) in a pro division probably isn't worth accepting anyway. Just stay am until you cash for enough to cover the fee.
hellbound
Eagle Member
Td can slide the money around. If he wants to the whole purse could go to first place. As long as the Min payout required is met. So in the case of last cash not being excepted by players it could be added to the other positions until the payout amount is met. Could also go the other way. Take a little off first, second, and make sure third place is min of 65.00 in the event of a player needed to reup the membership. Td could also pocket the money if payouts is above the needed amount
Already accounted for in the rule.
1.10 Distribution of Prizes
C. Any prizes (money or merchandise) declined by a player must pass down to the next finishing position. (Example: If a player placing third declines his prize, the player in fourth place will receive the third place prize, the player in fifth will receive the fourth place prize, etc.) Tournaments are allowed to retain prizes that have been declined by all players within a division only after the declined prizes have been passed through all finishing positions.
C. Any prizes (money or merchandise) declined by a player must pass down to the next finishing position. (Example: If a player placing third declines his prize, the player in fourth place will receive the third place prize, the player in fifth will receive the fourth place prize, etc.) Tournaments are allowed to retain prizes that have been declined by all players within a division only after the declined prizes have been passed through all finishing positions.
makes sense
I think this whole thing with not being able to take merch in lieu of cash is gonna make a lot of soft open fields, smaller and tougher. Which sucks.
In my area we typically have events maxed out at 90-100 players for our 1 day, 2 round c and b tiers.
Open fields are usually between 15-30, but a lot of those guys are tweener pros or just straight up bad ams that wanna play open. I feel like a lot of these tweeners will now just play Ma1, the ripple effect will continue through the other am fields where the tweeners will just play down a division. :\
and the stright up bad ams will just play Am, since even if they do cash, now they dont get anything for it
teemkey
* Ace Member *
I can easily imagine an Am or non-member determined to win their pro membership.
I doubt that will be the case. Not paying merch in lieu of cash was the rule for about 10 years, until the 2011 update to the Competition Manual. Pro fields weren't smaller nor were top amateurs hesitant to move up early during that time.
There was also, and remains, a trophy-only option for ams playing a pro division. Pay a reduced entry (1/3 to 1/2 of full entry...TD's discretion) and not be eligible to win prizes whether cash or merch. Perhaps now that merch in lieu of cash is again no longer an option, we'll see a resurgence of that trophy-only entry fee.
As for the tweeners playing "down". Good. The tweeners playing "up" tends to lead to a blurring of where division breaks should be (ratings-wise). If the 950-960 "tweeners" are in MA1, maybe the 920ish tweeners will be in MA2 and the 880 tweeners in MA3. Rather than the 880 tweeners being the top of MA2, the 920 tweeners being the top of MA1, and the 950 tweeners donating to MPO.
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teemkey
* Ace Member *
I'm curious. What would the status of of an Am be if they accept $20. Could they continue to play in sanctioned events to get the additional $5 to upgrade?
Consider that they accepted $20, and accepted that they wouldn't receive it.
Consider that they accepted $20, and accepted that they wouldn't receive it.
hellbound
Eagle Member
If im reading your question right. TD would collect the $5.00 from the player then send it in along with the prize money.
Biggest loophole Im not sure of yet is if a pro player is not current and cashes. Can they decline just like an AM. Granted it prob in the rule book and i need to brush up on it again with the new update.
edit: yes they can pass it down. 1.10 part C
Going to the IDGC TD event in November so im keeping my fingers crossed issues like this will be addressed not trying to go off the book.
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Yes they can decline. Anyone can decline to accept cash (or merch prizes). Odd as it sounds, no player is obligated to accept prizes of any kind.
hellbound
Eagle Member
Im shocked to not see some of the td's not complaining about the new AM rules on payouts. Extra leg work if they don't spend it day of. I know local club in my area you have to be a member and have your payout stamped if you want to save it. Looks like PDGA is pushing for online vending vs local clubs.
1.10
4. If a TD uses merchandise vouchers for Amateur payout, they must be
redeemable at the event or afterwards via online fulfillment.
5. Any prizes (cash or merchandise) that remain unclaimed (through no fault
of the TD) six months after the completion of the event are then relinquished
by the player. TDs must make a reasonable effort to provide the payout to
the player by contacting them, offering to ship, etc.
1.10
4. If a TD uses merchandise vouchers for Amateur payout, they must be
redeemable at the event or afterwards via online fulfillment.
5. Any prizes (cash or merchandise) that remain unclaimed (through no fault
of the TD) six months after the completion of the event are then relinquished
by the player. TDs must make a reasonable effort to provide the payout to
the player by contacting them, offering to ship, etc.
It's a little more explicit in that it addresses online fulfillment, but this is actually a step toward being more TD friendly than the old rule applicable to this situation.
The current (2013) Competition Manual states this regarding prizes that are unclaimed:
1.10.C.2 Players who leave before the official distribution of prizes do no relinquish their winnings but are responsible for any associated shipping costs.
The new rule puts a time limit on how long the TD is responsible for providing the prize (6 months), so at the very least, vouchers/gift certificates can now have an expiration date whereas before they did not.
The TD that doesn't want to deal with having an online fulfillment solution can always go the route of running a true amateur event and not have prize payouts that need fulfilling. Which I think is part of the PDGA's ultimate aim anyway.
teemkey
* Ace Member *
Sorry, I should have been clearer.
The Am does not decline the $20, but refuses to pay the remaining $5.
The TD will not be able to award the Am the $20, since the Am has to pay $25 for a professional membership before he/she can receive any winnings. Hence the Am accepted the winnings, but could not receive them.
The TD, I assume, has to send the $20 to the PDGA and the PDGA would credit the Am with $20 (as is done for a non-member paying $10 to play in a sanctioned event -- the non-member can ask the PDGA to credit all non-member fees that year toward that year's membership fee).
After this, does anyone know what the player's status is after the TD sends the PDGA the $20?
hellbound
Eagle Member
I would assume then he would have declined the cash at the point of "Im not paying 5.00" Think if its the case of a player cashing then before awards that said player needs to be called to the side and informed of what choices they have.
Wrong. It will affect many age-protected divisions as well. I played several where MPG didn't make if I hadn't registered. With no chance to get merch, I just won't.
Not totally. You can decline cash altogether and remain an Am, and they won't take anything. You just won't GET anything, either.
gcanter2376
Eagle Member
This will affect age protected divisions also. I am a masters age amateur who has recently been playing Pro Masters. I have cashed a few times and took merchandise so i wont lose my eligibity for Am Worlds in 2018. Now starting in 2018 i will no longer play Pro Masters because im not playing in a division where i cannot cash without losing my eligibilty. Does that make me a sandbagger?
I say emphatically NO! It makes you "doing what PDGA is forcing you to do."
tonyroberts
Par Member
Absolutely not. You're an amateur player of masters age. You have every right to play in the MA1 or MM1 divisions. You may prefer playing Pro because you enjoy that competition more, but if you make that choice you would have to choose not to accept the payout. If you're hoping to win merch, enter the Am divisions and win every event if you can.
