2018 Competition Rules Changes

[JC17393]

When has the TD been required to take money from player's payout?

They're not taking from the payout. They're paying out a membership in lieu of cash. No one is losing out on value here.

 

[brutalbrutus]

No one is losing out on value here.

Insert obligatory Lebowski "That's just like your opinion man" meme...

 

[AByrd]

Pros aren't going to be turning Am if they accept prizes, though. If you want a reward of value for placing well in a pro division, it is cash, period. Take it and turn pro or decline it to stay am. It's a binary decision rather than a layered decision based on the form of compensation.

To me, if you want to argue that ams deserve merch in lieu of cash in a pro division, then pros should be able to take cash in lieu of merch in an am division.

...and if a pro wants a reward of value for placing well in an amateur division, it is merchandise, period. Take it and turn amateur or decline it to stay pro. Another binary decision.

 

[Karl]

There have been instances where a TD says "ooops, shipment delayed, sorry don't have payout at the event" and then the players leave town and never get it. I think it's just clarifying if you don't have an option at the event / part of the event / B&M situation, you MUST have an online store option. Which is very fair.

If you're right, that's fine. But if you're not correct (and the TD doesn't declare such PRIOR to the event) what's the recourse? JC alludes to a "prepared TD" (or some such) but what about the 'less so'? There will be situations that arise in which will not be covered by such and will place the player in a pickle. Can't ensure that every TD does everything 'by the book' (in this case) so one may show up, 'cash', be handed a FM paper, and low-and-behold "be against the comp manual". Bad wording on the CM committee's part IF they DID intend to have it as you're inferring.

 

[_MTL_]

I Think it's just another step towards events and TD's being told no.

The sport on the competition side is in a shift from quantity to quality. And ensuring that things are done correctly is part of the shift.

 

[Horsman]

Seems impractical on the surface, unless it's a player pack you're assembling for the ams anyway. As for allowed or not, it's hard to say. There is the requirement that 85% (in C-tiers) or 100% (B-tiers) of net entries has to be paid out in the pro purse (Table 1 of Tour Standards) and that the pro purse is defined as the cash paid to the top finishers (min. top 40%). A player pack in lieu of cash going into the purse could cause issues with that math, though added cash could be enough to balance it out though.

As for the trophy-only entry...I'm not sure how any TD wouldn't have been aware of it even if they didn't offer it. It's been right there on the cover page of the TD report for years.

Had some time to think. You have the option for an Am to play pro at the reduced rate and can only accept a trophy. Then you have a separate check box for "upgraded players pack". That upgraded players pack option is available to all who sign up for the tournament.

Would this be an easy way to encourage ams to play pro?

 

[Horsman]

Youre an Am looking to play a pro B Tier. It costs $90 so the cost for you to play trophy only is $30. Upgraded players pack costs $60. You get to play a pro event and see if you fit there, you walk away with rated rounds, you get a massive players pack, $30 goes to the pro field.

Everyone wins?

 

[JC17393]

Had some time to think. You have the option for an Am to play pro at the reduced rate and can only accept a trophy. Then you have a separate check box for "upgraded players pack". That upgraded players pack option is available to all who sign up for the tournament.

Would this be an easy way to encourage ams to play pro?

It might be, but I'm not really the best to answer this. I don't think we should be looking for "easy" ways to encourage ams to play pro. I'm not that interested in encouraging ams to play pro at all...certainly not if they need to be bribed with player packs to do so.

I'm fine with ams playing pro if they choose, with the explicit understanding that they only do so if they either a) accept cash and turn pro if they place well enough or b) accept that they'll get nothing (but a trophy) no matter where they finish if they wish to remain amateur.

I'm not sure what's gained by bribing players to play a pro division if they're not inclined to be a pro. Sure, there may be players on the cusp who want to "test the waters" but if that's truly their intent, then the discounted entry fee should be sufficient for them to do so without paying full fare and "donating" for the opportunity.

 

[bwgort]

They're not taking from the payout. They're paying out a membership in lieu of cash. No one is losing out on value here.

You're changing the subject. It's not about "value." These players are playing in the professional division and the PDGA is requiring me to take money out of their payout for a membership. Either require it on the front end or don't require it at all.

 

[Consult20]

Okay let's say an am decides to take the $100 cash they won in Pro division and decides to turn pro. And I'm assuming this type of thing will happen more based on the new rules. And let's say the TD sends in the paperwork and $25 towards the end of the following week. And the new Pro wants to play a tournament that following weekend. But the PDGA hasn't received the money by the weekend. How does the new Pro prove that he doesn't owe the PDGA any more membership money for entering/cashing as a pro since it was taken out of their last tournament winnings?

Again assuming this will be more commonplace with the new rule changes. A temporary Pro membership card?

 

[davetherocketguy]

Lol...all this giving me more reason to never ever run a PDGA sanctioned event. Whatta PIA.

 

[kenjiac]

What don't you understand? I don't have enough skill to be competitive as a pro, so there is no possibility of placing, so no motivation to spend money that I will never see a return on. Do you have any idea how much it costs me to play your Ledgestone tourney? I can't justify spending money that took me a year to save up just so I can (maybe) take home a trophy. I'm not saying the only reason I go is so I can get stuff, and your player packs are great, but it helps if I can sell some merch and maybe recoup some of the money I spent, or get something that I otherwise could not afford to buy. Love of the sport only goes so far, and some amateurs are traveling thousands of miles to attend tournaments without the benefit of sponsors and the ability to win purses. How can I justify paying you $100 to play in your tourney when I know that a big chunk of it will be given to a pro, and I know for a fact that I will receive nothing, no matter how well I play. I can't wait to see what happens when all you big-tournament TDs realize that the ams aren't coming. Gonna be fun to watch.

If your not on the line between Pro and Am this change will have no effect on you. Play an Am division and get a merch payout if you'd place well enough. I think your confused about the no merch for am change, it only applies if your an am playing in a pro division.

 

[1978]

Okay let's say an am decides to take the $100 cash they won in Pro division and decides to turn pro. And I'm assuming this type of thing will happen more based on the new rules. And let's say the TD sends in the paperwork and $25 towards the end of the following week. And the new Pro wants to play a tournament that following weekend. But the PDGA hasn't received the money by the weekend. How does the new Pro prove that he doesn't owe the PDGA any more membership money for entering/cashing as a pro since it was taken out of their last tournament winnings?

Again assuming this will be more commonplace with the new rule changes. A temporary Pro membership card?

If you were good enough to cash in the $100-$300 range, you are likely keeping your Am status for a reason. A major tournament goal, flexibility, moral, whatever. $100 is unlikely to sway you to be pro permanently.

A low level advanced that plays out of his mind or plays a weak pro field would be silly to accept the cash forever limiting his play for just $100...when he might not cash again for years.

 

[hellbound]

The reason TD's aren't complaining is any good TD read that and thought the same thing I did - "Why would I not have payout available at the end of the event?!?"

What im reading is if a player Get there payout and desides to walk away after the event the TD still has to honor it months down the road. Say you run an event in the summer and you get a message saying I want to cash my payout. Now as a player I can hold you to it. I don't have an online listing of discs and now have to deal with do you have this or that in this color or weight.

 

[sjberry2017]

Okay let's say an am decides to take the $100 cash they won in Pro division and decides to turn pro. And I'm assuming this type of thing will happen more based on the new rules. And let's say the TD sends in the paperwork and $25 towards the end of the following week. And the new Pro wants to play a tournament that following weekend. But the PDGA hasn't received the money by the weekend. How does the new Pro prove that he doesn't owe the PDGA any more membership money for entering/cashing as a pro since it was taken out of their last tournament winnings?

Again assuming this will be more commonplace with the new rule changes. A temporary Pro membership card?

P: "Hello, my name is Disk Gopher and I cashed at my last event and have already been upgraded to pro, so no need to take the money out."

TD: "Oh, that's awesome! I wasn't made aware of this though, can you show me that you cashed?"

P: "One sec" *pull out smartphone, pull up player profile, go to event from last week* "Here you go, there's my name and PDGA number and you can see here that I cashed for $100"

TD: "OK cool, thank you. Good luck!"

It would work the same if the player wasn't a PDGA member before, they'd just have to look up the event in the search bar and there wouldn't be a PDGA number as well

 

[_MTL_]

What im reading is if a player Get there payout and desides to walk away after the event the TD still has to honor it months down the road. Say you run an event in the summer and you get a message saying I want to cash my payout. Now as a player I can hold you to it. I don't have an online listing of discs and now have to deal with do you have this or that in this color or weight.

The rules says "If a TD uses merchandise vouchers for Amateur payout, they must be
redeemable at the event OR afterwards via online fulfillment.

In this example, if was provided, I would argue the TD accomplished that.

However, the second part about 6 months is certainly in line with your thinking.

 

[hellbound]

The rules says "If a TD uses merchandise vouchers for Amateur payout, they must be
redeemable at the event OR afterwards via online fulfillment.

In this example, if was provided, I would argue the TD accomplished that.

However, the second part about 6 months is certainly in line with your thinking.

Yup is it defining the online voucher only or including the event payouts from vending onsite????

 

[Hampstead]

P: "Hello, my name is Disk Gopher and I cashed at my last event and have already been upgraded to pro, so no need to take the money out."

TD: "Oh, that's awesome! I wasn't made aware of this though, can you show me that you cashed?"

P: "One sec" *pull out smartphone, pull up player profile, go to event from last week* "Here you go, there's my name and PDGA number and you can see here that I cashed for $100"

TD: "OK cool, thank you. Good luck!"

It would work the same if the player wasn't a PDGA member before, they'd just have to look up the event in the search bar and there wouldn't be a PDGA number as well

Updated results and payout info available the next weekend? We must not play the same events.

 

[McLovin]

Taken directly from the PDGA Facebook page about 20 mins ago.

Update to provide context for the 2018 Competition Manual for Disc Golf - Section 1.10 (October 19th, 2017)

The changes in this section came about for various reasons after many, many PDGA Competition Committee discussions that included other PDGA BOD and Staff members alike. Some of the most notable talking points that helped push these changes were as follows:

• Amateur player complaints (and a BOD request) concerning a player winning an Amateur Worlds title despite previously accepting cash in a Professional division, in a PDGA-sanctioned event, prior to becoming a PDGA member.

• Amateur player and Tournament Director complaints about non-members jumping back and forth and "poaching" both cash in Professional divisions and merchandise in Amateur divisions.

• Professional player complaints about non-members and Amateur members taking winnings out of the Pro divisions purses.

• Tournament Director complaints about having to come up with large quantities of merchandise to payout Amateurs in Pro divisions.

The PDGA Competition Committee will be releasing another article next week that explains the reasoning behind many of the most significant changes in both the PDGA Competition Manual for Disc Golf Events. We will continue to add what we see as some of the most vital feedback directly to this article as we work toward the release of the full article next week.

 

[bwgort]

Taken directly from the PDGA Facebook page about 20 mins ago.

Update to provide context for the 2018 Competition Manual for Disc Golf - Section 1.10 (October 19th, 2017)

The changes in this section came about for various reasons after many, many PDGA Competition Committee discussions that included other PDGA BOD and Staff members alike. Some of the most notable talking points that helped push these changes were as follows:

• Amateur player complaints (and a BOD request) concerning a player winning an Amateur Worlds title despite previously accepting cash in a Professional division, in a PDGA-sanctioned event, prior to becoming a PDGA member.

• Amateur player and Tournament Director complaints about non-members jumping back and forth and "poaching" both cash in Professional divisions and merchandise in Amateur divisions.

• Professional player complaints about non-members and Amateur members taking winnings out of the Pro divisions purses.

• Tournament Director complaints about having to come up with large quantities of merchandise to payout Amateurs in Pro divisions.

The PDGA Competition Committee will be releasing another article next week that explains the reasoning behind many of the most significant changes in both the PDGA Competition Manual for Disc Golf Events. We will continue to add what we see as some of the most vital feedback directly to this article as we work toward the release of the full article next week.

I wonder what TDs were complaining that they weren't being forced to take players winnings and pay pdga membership dues with them.