2019 Pros Switching Sponsors Official Thread

[BuiltTooLong]

Agree that Cale needs to be mentioned with anything Prodigy even if he doesn't extensively tour. Also, is Uli's move to Discraft as imminent as McBeth's??

 

[kjr63]

How can Discraft sign all these players? One would think that already signing PMcB would take all their budget and more.

 

[rj29274]

Too bad the SW Regional Team Challenge (Morley Field, San Diego) is cancelled this year (every December). Last year, I played as the #4 Open for Team AZ and battled against Drew Gipson (we tied) and he was throwing all Innova. To the point, I would get to see first hand what people are throwing. It is kind of a huge event for all the top west coast pros, and somehow I get to play. . .

 

[_MTL_]

How can Discraft sign all these players? One would think that already signing PMcB would take all their budget and more.

1725 posts in and the overall misunderstanding of how big Discraft is still exists.

 

[TerryTuffskins]

I would much rather be robbed than raped.:\

I'd take a punch in the face over either.

 

[broomerang]

1725 posts in and the overall misunderstanding of how big Discraft is still exists.

They haven't done much to enlighten us otherwise.

 

[joecoin]

This is so far off topic that it's not even funny. But if you want to play.

https://www.neighborhoodscout.com/blog/top100dangerous this list is based off FBI statistics.

... I'm not sure what you're trying to prove when all the statistics say the complete opposite. I'll post the stats below so you can do the simple math and see for yourself. As I said, it's best not to throw stones.

...

Now, can we get back to the topic at hand and stop cluttering this chat with other things.

Okay.

 

[joecoin]

I would much rather be robbed than raped.:\

Why not both?

 

[JeCroisQue]

If we lend some credibility to the rumors found here and on reddit for a moment let's fast forward to February and imagine one of the possible "new look" scenarios!

Notes at the bottom:

Innova's Top 3:
- Barsby
- Sexton
- Conrad

Discraft Top 3:
- McBeth
- Jones
- Ulibarri

Discmania Top 3:
- McMahon
- Lizotte
- Shue

Prodigy Top 3:
- Dickerson
- Paju
- Orum (or Colglazier)

Latitude Top 3:
- Wysocki
- McCray
- Owens

Dynamic Discs Top 3:
- Melton
- Risley
- Oakley (or Keegan)

DGA Top 3:
- Elmore
- Bitney
- Criss

--------------------------

Notes:

- You have to be "full time touring" to be on this (for fun, irrelevant) list. Discraft obviously has MJ and Doss, but we'll likely only see them sporadically unless things change. I'm also counting MPO, so in cases like DGA where Jon Baldwin is the #1 he doesn't make the list because he mostly plays MP40+

- I didn't do FPO to keep the post short, and because there seem to be fewer moves. If someone wants to, feel free.

- If Jones goes with Prodigy over Discraft (seems to be the strongest 2 suitors), he goes immediately to #2 and bumps Paju to #3

- Small rumor that I heard awhile back but nothing new on is Grady Shue being courted by DD (he's dating Bjerkaas). That would move him from Discmania #3 --> DD #1, and bring Nate Perkins into the Discmania #3 spot.

- I omitted Westside and MVP because of their small teams with no real week-in and week-out road warrior NT/M/PT threat. Am I wrong? Agree or Disagree? Matt Dollar might be the biggest threat, but he doesn't tour much.

- Some people might argue that Emerson Keith and Matt Bell deserve to contend for the #3 spot in lieu of Devan Owens. Thoughts?


-------------------------

Or in general, reactions?

The only things I have a problem with are in bold. No way Jones jumps Paju without major results next year. Paju has major stock and runs most of Prodigy EU and is very crucial to the brand. I doubt they would bump him for a up and coming player who has not really had a major win.

I would still think Melton is more of a draw than Shue. He is more marketable and clearly the better player right now. No way DD would bump Melton even with the Shue-PB romance.

Honestly, Nate perkins is probably the better player VS shue as well. I think he is more marketable right now also. Although that could easily change going forward.

Matt Dollar is a good player for MVP, same with Elaine King. But I have yet to see MVP shell out real dough for a star. I would like to see them step their game up and get a big name if they can afford it.

Also, FWIW I think Owens is clearly the more marketable player vs Kieth and bell. He is also the better player.

 

[texasissouth]

- If Jones goes with Prodigy over Discraft (seems to be the strongest 2 suitors), he goes immediately to #2 and bumps Paju to #3

I'd still put 1029 rated, 6th at worlds Paju over 1022 rated, 9th at worlds Jones.

I know Jones got a lot of hype because he played USDGC well and was good at the end of the year, but Paju played well at Konopiste and Waco and Worlds and DDGC.
Only thing really holding him back is his putting, and he switched his stroke up toward the end of the season to something that looks more repeatable with less moving parts. I think an offseason of perfecting it will do him a world of good.

 

[JTacoma03]

You're forgetting about Cale on the Prodigy side. I think he hits enough big events to fit the full time touring pro stipulation.

Agree that Cale needs to be mentioned with anything Prodigy even if he doesn't extensively tour. Also, is Uli's move to Discraft as imminent as McBeth's??

I didn't include Cale because of this:

4 PT's (40% participation)
1 NT (16% participation)
1 M (33% participation)

By Comparison Michael Johansen (who also didn't make my arbitrary "cut" for the list) played 1 more NT. Even Doss played 3 NT's and 2 PT's this year out of the 6 total tournaments he entered.

Nothing against the guy, he's REALLY good and shows it when he plays, but to be the face of a brand on the tour I think you have to actually be on the tour. I think he's easily "first in" kinda like Heimburg on my Innova list.

Just my .02 though - there's no science here just opinion - and I definitely respect wanting to show Cale love.

How can Discraft sign all these players? One would think that already signing PMcB would take all their budget and more.

Until I'm proven wrong (and I very well may be in the future), my read on the whole thing is that they've been in a quasi-tailspin since the 2012 Exodus of the team to Prodigy, supporting the AUDL (founded in 2012), and having the biggest name players that stayed with them tour less and less each year.

I'm sure there are many other factors in there, that's just what can be seen publicly, but the other side of that coin is that they've had lower overhead theoretically and could have been planning a big move and waiting for opportunity.

1725 posts in and the overall misunderstanding of how big Discraft is still exists.

It seems you're taking this a bit personally. It's fair to have a misunderstanding of all companies, nobody publishes their revenue or even attempts to spin a valuation publicly. We are under the assumption here that Innova did not want to match what Discraft is offering, and they're aiming at arguably the biggest 3 fish this offseason.

I mean...the Discraft website design looks like things I made in high school (and I'm not a good web dev by any stretch of the most vivid imagination). I'm honestly not trying to throw shade here, just contextualizing what the public sees vs. what you see behind the scenes. The team page for Nate Doss has a quote saying "The only permanent 18 hole disc golf course in Australia"...that info is at least 6 years old and would take 1 hour to fix at most.

Discraft is a fine company, but let's not pretend like they haven't been rebounding since 2012. On the touring team scene they've been borderline irrelevant for the entire Paul-and-Ricky show, and completely irrelevant if MJ or Doss isn't signed up. It seems now they've been waiting for an opportunity, and found it.

 

[JTacoma03]

The only things I have a problem with are in bold. No way Jones jumps Paju without major results next year. Paju has major stock and runs most of Prodigy EU and is very crucial to the brand. I doubt they would bump him for a up and coming player who has not really had a major win.

I would still think Melton is more of a draw than Shue. He is more marketable and clearly the better player right now. No way DD would bump Melton even with the Shue-PB romance.

Honestly, Nate perkins is probably the better player VS shue as well. I think he is more marketable right now also. Although that could easily change going forward.

Matt Dollar is a good player for MVP, same with Elaine King. But I have yet to see MVP shell out real dough for a star. I would like to see them step their game up and get a big name if they can afford it.

Also, FWIW I think Owens is clearly the more marketable player vs Kieth and bell. He is also the better player.

Just a minor point - this isn't how the sponsors would see their own players, but my idea of how the fans would see the pecking order. So while I respect the Paju's for investing in Prodigy and growing the game, I didn't factor that in here (also why Will isn't on the list, despite his heavy lifting off the course lately - he's clearly the top dog and biggest name in the long veiw).

Shue was top 10 in the Pro Tour and National Tour standings for most of this year, he had a really good 2018, which is why I think he'd slightly edge Melton. Good argument about "draw" though, Melton is the bigger name as of now.

I'd still put 1029 rated, 6th at worlds Paju over 1022 rated, 9th at worlds Jones.

I know Jones got a lot of hype because he played USDGC well and was good at the end of the year, but Paju played well at Konopiste and Waco and Worlds and DDGC.
Only thing really holding him back is his putting, and he switched his stroke up toward the end of the season to something that looks more repeatable with less moving parts. I think an offseason of perfecting it will do him a world of good.

Jones also nearly won Idlewild, but point well made.

 

[snappyj]

The only things I have a problem with are in bold. No way Jones jumps Paju without major results next year. Paju has major stock and runs most of Prodigy EU and is very crucial to the brand. I doubt they would bump him for a up and coming player who has not really had a major win.

I would still think Melton is more of a draw than Shue. He is more marketable and clearly the better player right now. No way DD would bump Melton even with the Shue-PB romance.

Honestly, Nate perkins is probably the better player VS shue as well. I think he is more marketable right now also. Although that could easily change going forward.

Matt Dollar is a good player for MVP, same with Elaine King. But I have yet to see MVP shell out real dough for a star. I would like to see them step their game up and get a big name if they can afford it.

Also, FWIW I think Owens is clearly the more marketable player vs Kieth and bell. He is also the better player.

Being crucial to the brand is not what he meant. Schusterick is crucial to the brand, too, but he's clearly not on the list

 

[BrotherDave]

Honestly, Nate perkins is probably the better player VS shue as well. I think he is more marketable right now also. Although that could easily change going forward.

Disagree. No knock on Nate but his putting can be a bit inconsistent.

 

[texasissouth]

Jones also nearly won Idlewild, but point well made.

That's true, and that's a very difficult tourney, it says a lot to be near the top at the end of it. There's also something to be said with the fact they Seppo is doing more events in Europe, and Jones could definitely make a leap this year a la Eagle. So it's reasonable that they would be close. I just like watching Seppo play and think he's close to putting together a really good year.

Edit: I wasn't using the most current ratings
Seppo: 1036
Jones: 1029

 

[JeCroisQue]

Being crucial to the brand is not what he meant. Schusterick is crucial to the brand, too, but he's clearly not on the list

Just a minor point - this isn't how the sponsors would see their own players, but my idea of how the fans would see the pecking order. So while I respect the Paju's for investing in Prodigy and growing the game, I didn't factor that in here (also why Will isn't on the list, despite his heavy lifting off the course lately - he's clearly the top dog and biggest name in the long veiw).

Shue was top 10 in the Pro Tour and National Tour standings for most of this year, he had a really good 2018, which is why I think he'd slightly edge Melton. Good argument about "draw" though, Melton is the bigger name as of now.



Jones also nearly won Idlewild, but point well made.

I think you guys may be missing my point on Paju. He is most likely the biggest name in Europe outside of maybe Lizotte. That is a huge pull for a brand when they are trying to market themselves globally. His following in the EU plus the US outweighs Jones currently IMO. If you are only talking about US fans then I would potentially agree, but we both know Europeans buy plastic too. Paju has the higher rating and a higher world ranking and has been the better player for considerably longer. I like Jones, but he is not quite there yet. He could easily surpass him next year, but until then I still have Paju over him in the pecking order.

Schusterick is a 1006 rated player, we all know why he is not on that list... Seppo's rating is 30 points higher.

Disagree. No knock on Nate but his putting can be a bit inconsistent.

Nate has a higher rating than Shue right now... he's also ranked over 30 spots higher in world rankings so numbers agree with me.

 

[paulw]

Well, could be worse, could be Philadelphia:

"Philadelphia consistently ranks above the national average in terms of crime, especially violent offenses. It has the highest violent crime rate of the ten American cities with a population greater than 1 million residents, as well as the highest poverty rate among these cities. It has been included in real estate analytics company NeighborhoodScout's "Top 100 Most Dangerous Cities in America" list every year since it has been compiled."

Wow, struck a nerve with my smart*** Lebron remark eh .......

I'm born and raised Ohio and realized 30yrs ago when I moved to Philly you have to appreciate Ohio and kid about its shortcomings or stay.

After all, your best disc golf course is in Kentucky, your best football team is in a college stadium, and your best basketball team just left for LA.

Sorry I haven't referenced any stats with my smart*** comments, I'm not that organized, too busy hiding behind stuff so the criminals don't get me!!!

Not near enough archer/arrow discussion here for my liking anyway.

How long after McBeth hits a tree with a Discraft disc until someone posts he's lost without Innova? <60 sec I'm thinking....

 

[BrotherDave]

Nate has a higher rating than Shue right now... he's also ranked over 30 spots higher in world rankings so numbers agree with me.

 

[Three Putt]

How can Discraft sign all these players? One would think that already signing PMcB would take all their budget and more.

1725 posts in and the overall misunderstanding of how big Discraft is still exists.

Until I'm proven wrong (and I very well may be in the future), my read on the whole thing is that they've been in a quasi-tailspin since the 2012 Exodus of the team to Prodigy, supporting the AUDL (founded in 2012), and having the biggest name players that stayed with them tour less and less each year.

I'm sure there are many other factors in there, that's just what can be seen publicly, but the other side of that coin is that they've had lower overhead theoretically and could have been planning a big move and waiting for opportunity.

I obviously have no knowledge of anything in the flying disc business, but Discraft always struck me as different back in the day. It seems like a legit flying disc company competing against disc golf companies.

When the Prodigy/DD thing happened, Discraft's eyes seemed to be on Ultimate. Really the way I saw the landscape at the time, Ultimate seemed to be the growth sport happening so it didn't really surprise me that disc golf seemed not to be that high on the priority list. Ultimate seems to have plateaued a bit right now and disc golf is still doing that slowly growing thing it does, so right now from a business perspective of a company trying to juggle support of multiple disc sports it seems like a good business move for a company like Discraft to move some more resources over to disc golf.

None of the other major disc golf companies really have that issue. They really are all in on disc golf. Innova dabbles in some other disc sports, but they are a disc golf company. They are never going to be so distracted by doggie discs that the majority of their top disc golf team members could all walk off at once. Discraft is so deeply into Ultimate that it can and did happen to them.

I don't really see that as a knock on Discraft, it's just a reality that their business focus can't be as narrow as the other major players in disc golf.

People who are new to the disc golf landscape don't get what Discraft is. People who don't remember that the Eagle and TeeBird were a direct reaction to the fact that Discraft scared the pants off Innova the previous year with the XL don't really understand how competitive their discs are. They just know that nobody throwing Discraft has been a major player on tour for the last several years. That's about to change.

 

[Flick Maniac]

DD's top #2 and #3 Oakley and Risley? Both too streaky really. Hot round, abominable round, meh round. I dont know the team well enough to suggest substitutes (hell Paige even would do) but to me that only tells me about the team. For the other top dogs I could name probably 5 top players but struggling to remember who plays with DD tbh. Sorry to fans of the two gentlemen or the team.