888 or 999 for DNF?

[joshmo65]

I have two different cases where people have walked off the course in the middle of the round not due to injury or an emergency and I am unsure of whether to give them an 888 or an 999. In both cases, the weather was very crappy out and both players were not playing well at all.

1) After round 1 of a tournament, the player was not happy with their scores and expressed that they wanted to quit; however, they decided to start the round and by the 4th hole was shooting absolutely terrible. Instead of completing the round in the rain and struggling through their bad play, they walked off the course without notifying the TD and left.

2) During a round in which the TD was on the card, with 3 holes to go, a player loses his disc. Instead of walking back up the long hill which was just thrown down in a light rain, the player tells the group to go on and finish the last two holes without him as he looks for his disc. After locating his disc, he leaves the course. This player was also shooting terribly compared to their rating.

According to the pdga site:

What happens to my rating if I do not complete a round or start the next round without telling the TD?

This is considered a Did Not Finish (DNF) with a penalty. You will receive a score of 888 for the round which triggers a penalty lowering your overall rating up to 5 rating points for a 6 month period. If your current rating is within 5 points of dropping into a lower division, your rating will only be dropped enough to keep you in your current division.

1) I believe that this is a pretty clear 888. The player left the course without notifying the TD without a legitimate reason and should therefore get an 888 penalty.

2) I am not certain of this as the player notified the TD that he would not be finishing the round. It is not clear to me whether the 888 applies to "What happens to my rating if I do not complete a round?" or "What happens to my rating if I do not complete a round... without telling the TD?" I believe that this should also be an 888 as I feel like if the player were shooting well, they would have finished the round and then gone and found their disc since we only had 2 holes left after the lost disc.

I am interested in hearing people's opinions.

 

[JC17393]

I believe 888 applies in any situation in which the player leaves the tournament without notifying the TD, regardless of their reason for doing so. I mean, if you don't do the TD the courtesy of notifying him/her why you're leaving, it's anyone's guess whether it was a legitimate withdrawal (injury/emergency) or not.

Though I wouldn't necessarily require that a player notify the TD directly if it's the middle of the round, especially if the TD is playing in the tournament. Telling the group the reason and having them pass word to the TD should suffice, particularly if it is of an emergency nature and it would waste valuable time to try to find the TD.

For the two examples, I'd give both an 888. We've all been in the position of losing a valued disc. We all have had to suck it up and move on without it. Quitting a round to continue searching for it, particularly with the end of the round so close, doesn't constitute a legitimate excuse for withdrawing, IMO. He quit because he was playing poorly and regardless of if his concern was for his rating or not, I'd hang an 888 on him.

The thing to keep in mind is that an 888 in the report doesn't automatically translate to a ratings penalty. The 888 is going to have to be accompanied by a report of why it was given, and then further decisions would be made based on that report. So I'd err on the side of giving the 888 with an explanation and letting the PDGA powers-that-be determine whether it was appropriate or not, and whether the player deserves further penalty.

 

[Pwingles]

Those are both 888 and its not close.

As a TD you have some discretion when these situations come up, but IMO, neither of these can be 999's.

There was no emergency, injury, advanced notice, or extenuating circumstance that would allow for them to leave and not complete the round.

Without double checking to see what the rule book says, these would be the things I would consider as a TD when making this decision.

 

[sidewinder22]

I believe 888 applies in any situation in which the player leaves the tournament without notifying the TD, regardless of their reason for doing so. I mean, if you don't do the TD the courtesy of notifying him/her why you're leaving, it's anyone's guess whether it was a legitimate withdrawal (injury/emergency) or not.

Though I wouldn't necessarily require that a player notify the TD directly if it's the middle of the round, especially if the TD is playing in the tournament. Telling the group the reason and having them pass word to the TD should suffice, particularly if it is of an emergency nature and it would waste valuable time to try to find the TD.

For the two examples, I'd give both an 888. We've all been in the position of losing a valued disc. We all have had to suck it up and move on without it. Quitting a round to continue searching for it, particularly with the end of the round so close, doesn't constitute a legitimate excuse for withdrawing, IMO. He quit because he was playing poorly and regardless of if his concern was for his rating or not, I'd hang an 888 on him.

The thing to keep in mind is that an 888 in the report doesn't automatically translate to a ratings penalty. The 888 is going to have to be accompanied by a report of why it was given, and then further decisions would be made based on that report. So I'd err on the side of giving the 888 with an explanation and letting the PDGA powers-that-be determine whether it was appropriate or not, and whether the player deserves further penalty.

Hypocrite....

So you think a lost disc is a valid reason[for quitting]?

Apparently I do, otherwise why would I be arguing against assessing an 888 to his round.

And let's be frank here. We're talking about a league round. Not a Major. Not an A-tier. Not even a weekend C-tier. A league round. Whether he quit or not on this round, he's still welcome and eligible to play the next round. DNF a round does not equal DNF the whole league like it would in a tournament. What I'm getting at is a league round is treated differently in a whole lot of ways compared to a tourney round. To me, that includes how hardline I'd be as a TD when it came to DNFs and how I treat them.

Though if I'm being honest, I probably wouldn't 888 this guy if he did this at Worlds.

 

[DiscFifty]

Since the player left without talking to the td in both scenarios, it's an 888.

 

[PhattD]

I think several people misread the original post. In example 2 the player did notify the TD. He was on the card with him.

 

[krupicka]

In option 2, if he was shooting terribly according to his rating, he could also get the 888:
"Enter 888 when a player has been confirmed to have manipulated their score or dropped out to preserve their rating."

 

[armiller]

Can a player play a second tournament round if they missed the first?

I don't want to start a new thread, but this doesn't really follow the thread here...

If a player does not complete round 1 of a PDGA tournament (i.e. 888, 999, etc.), because they walk away or show up late or whatever, can that player play in round 2? I bet this is in the rule book but I haven't found where to look. Is it a TD call? Or do PDGA rules prohibit playing round 2 in that situation?

Thanks.

 

[JC17393]

I don't want to start a new thread, but this doesn't really follow the thread here...

If a player does not complete round 1 of a PDGA tournament (i.e. 888, 999, etc.), because they walk away or show up late or whatever, can that player play in round 2? I bet this is in the rule book but I haven't found where to look. Is it a TD call? Or do PDGA rules prohibit playing round 2 in that situation?

Thanks.

If they receive a 999 or an 888, I'd say no, they can't play round 2. Those codes denote official withdrawal or disqualification from the event.

However, I do think the TD can allow them to continue playing the event even if they quit or miss an early round, but in such a case those earlier rounds would not be classified as 999 or 888. They would be recorded as par + 4 for each hole the player did not complete. So their score would be 126 or something like that (depending on par and any completed holes).

811.F

5. Missed Hole Due to Late Arrival or Absence. If a player is not present to throw when they are next in the throwing order, and remains absent for at least 30 seconds, the player does not make any more throws on the hole. The player's score for the hole is par plus four. Par is the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions, as determined by the Director. See Section 1.05.B of the Competition Manual for determining late arrival.
6. Omitted Hole. The round has been completed, and the player has neglected to play one or more holes. The player receives a score of par plus four for each unplayed hole.​

 

[kenjiac]

In option 2, if he was shooting terribly according to his rating, he could also get the 888:
"Enter 888 when a player has been confirmed to have manipulated their score or dropped out to preserve their rating."

888 them both based on this criteria

 

[d11rok]

Those who say "not informing the TD in any case is grounds for an 888, since the TD doesn't know if it's an emergency or not"- if it's a true emergency, I for one would not waste time trying to find a TD or official.

There should be some impetus on the TD to follow up with the player if able to determine why they left post-hoc. Although I imagine the amount if true emergencies is far less than the ol' walk off, this should still be kept in mind.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Those who say "not informing the TD in any case is grounds for an 888, since the TD doesn't know if it's an emergency or not"- if it's a true emergency, I for one would not waste time trying to find a TD or official.

There should be some impetus on the TD to follow up with the player if able to determine why they left post-hoc. Although I imagine the amount if true emergencies is far less than the ol' walk off, this should still be kept in mind.

Unless the TD let the player play the round alone, then there will be other players in the group who can inform the TD why the player left.

 

[d11rok]

Indeed, there will be cardmates who may or may not remember to inform the TD, nor should it be their duty (only good favor) to do so.

My point was to suggest that there may be another side to the story in a minority of cases, and players should not be assumed to have left for malfeasant reasons.

 

[araytx]

Indeed, there will be cardmates who may or may not remember to inform the TD, nor should it be their duty (only good favor) to do so.

My point was to suggest that there may be another side to the story in a minority of cases, and players should not be assumed to have left for malfeasant reasons.

From a TD perspective, I am not "assuming" anything. I simply think the 888 is for leaving without informing the TD" of why. Has nothing to do with whether I think the reasons are "malfeasant" or not. It's kinda like not showing up in court to defend yourself. Now if the player wants to contact ME post -tourney to explain reasons, that is something I'd hear. But it's not incumbent upon me to contact them. You need to submit or inform of a reason to get 999; otherwise you get 888.

 

[aredoubles]

Related incident that happened to me at a B-tier this past weekend:

Cardmate informs us at the beginning of the round that he'll have to leave early, due to a prior commitment he'd made months earlier. But he plans on coming back tomorrow to play the remaining rounds. I'm not sure if he'd informed the TD about this beforehand. He's totally fine with getting a par + 4 on every hole he misses, he's playing mostly for fun, and isn't too concerned about his finish or his rating.

Halfway through the round, he's actually playing well and leading the card, but the clock strikes, and he has to leave. We finish the round without him.

Upon turning in our scorecard, someone checking the cards (but not the TD himself, who's elsewhere on the course) tells us to put down par + 4 for every hole this person missed. So they end up quadruple-bogeying half of the round, haha.

The next day, he arrives as promised, sees his place on the bottom card, puts up no fuss, and finishes the tournament.

He did get all of his round scores entered preliminarily into the PDGA site. A few days later now, I see that his left-early round score has now been changed to a 999 DNF, but he still has valid scores for the rounds that came afterwards.

Was this handled appropriately? I wish the TD had been more directly communicated with during this process, but otherwise, what could've been done differently?

 

[tonyroberts]

You really can't remain in the competition if you fail to complete the course.

See the Misplay Rule 811.F.3:

Failure to Complete a Hole. The player has finished the round or thrown on a hole without having completed a previous hole. The score for the misplayed hole is the number of throws made, plus one for completing the hole, plus two penalty throws for the misplay. Intentionally failing to complete a hole constitutes withdrawal from competition. (Emphasis mine.)

 

[IHearChains]

if it's a true emergency, I for one would not waste time trying to find a TD or official.

The corollary to this is, if it's a true emergency, I for one don't give a rats azz whether its 888 or 999.

 

[JC17393]

Related incident that happened to me at a B-tier this past weekend:

Cardmate informs us at the beginning of the round that he'll have to leave early, due to a prior commitment he'd made months earlier. But he plans on coming back tomorrow to play the remaining rounds. I'm not sure if he'd informed the TD about this beforehand. He's totally fine with getting a par + 4 on every hole he misses, he's playing mostly for fun, and isn't too concerned about his finish or his rating.

Halfway through the round, he's actually playing well and leading the card, but the clock strikes, and he has to leave. We finish the round without him.

Upon turning in our scorecard, someone checking the cards (but not the TD himself, who's elsewhere on the course) tells us to put down par + 4 for every hole this person missed. So they end up quadruple-bogeying half of the round, haha.

The next day, he arrives as promised, sees his place on the bottom card, puts up no fuss, and finishes the tournament.

He did get all of his round scores entered preliminarily into the PDGA site. A few days later now, I see that his left-early round score has now been changed to a 999 DNF, but he still has valid scores for the rounds that came afterwards.

Was this handled appropriately? I wish the TD had been more directly communicated with during this process, but otherwise, what could've been done differently?

That should not have been a 999, IMO. The score with his par+4 holes was the appropriate way to handle it since, if the TD allowed the player to return, those holes were "omitted holes" (per 811.F.6) not a withdrawal. 999 (and 888) denote withdrawal from competition, not an incomplete round. I'm curious if the TD made the change on his own or the PDGA was involved in the decision, especially considering the score was recorded appropriately initially.

That said, I think the misplay rule for omitted holes is being mis-applied to allow for these types of scenarios (with RC and PDGA BOD consent). To me, if you fail to finish a round, you should be considered withdrawn from competition and not allowed back to play subsequent rounds. That's the way it used to be.

The change and the omitted hole rule was implemented to handle emergency situations where the player had to leave the course for a time but returned before the end of the round. It was prompted by an incident at USDGC in which a player was called away to deal with an emergency with his child, who was in the care of tournament provided daycare. He left his group for 4-5 holes then once his child was okay, he returned to finish the round. Such a situation seems a fair reason for such a rule. Extending it to cover non-emergency departures kinda rubs me the wrong way.

 

[paulw]

...To me, if you fail to finish a round, you should be considered withdrawn from competition and not allowed back to play subsequent rounds. ...

If you can't leave early, why can you arrive late?

It's never made any sense to me why a player can arrive late and finish (for any reason) but can't leave early . . . ?

What's the difference?

Just do it the same for both instances -- personally I think both instances should be DQ'd -- but it's not overly important to me.

 

[araytx]

If you can't leave early, why can you arrive late?

It's never made any sense to me why a player can arrive late and finish (for any reason) but can't leave early . . . ?

What's the difference?

Just do it the same for both instances -- personally I think both instances should be DQ'd -- but it's not overly important to me.

Harder to DQ for arriving late, at least for the first round. The player could then argue he never entered and was just coming to get his refund.