How often do you 888, DNF rounds in league play?

[notroman]

sidewinder, I'm not sure if you're an annoying troll or if you're really just that dense, but..

Quitting is confirmation enough. There is no justification for not finishing here.

What more evidence do you need? He lost his go-to driver and wouldn't continue. If he lost a throw away disc, he would continue because it wouldn't affect his play.

Player quits after stroke penalty. Confirmation.

All these are answered in the very first post that started this whole thread:

Players statement was "I lost my go to driver. Im going to be swamped all week until the collegiate SECO tournament this weekend so I wouldn't have time to look. Finding that disc was more important to me than finishing. I wasn't even doing bad, probably would have cashed, but I didn't want to go to seco without my favorite driver. It sucks but taking one bad league round is less important than not being able to throw the shot I want to several times at the collegiate tournament this weekend"

And I know from your history you will try to respond to this with posts full of opinions and nonsensical data so I'll save you some keystrokes and let you know that I won't bother reading it.

 

[sidewinder22]

sidewinder, I'm not sure if you're an annoying troll or if you're really just that dense, but..

All these are answered in the very first post that started this whole thread:



And I know from your history you will try to respond to this with posts full of opinions and nonsensical data so I'll save you some keystrokes and let you know that I won't bother reading it.

Didn't read into the meat of it. At any rate his reason for quitting is pure rating manipulation for the following tournament, should be 888 or par plus 4 on each hole.

 

[JC17393]

Didn't read into the meat of it. At any rate his reason for quitting is pure rating manipulation for the following tournament, should be 888 or par plus 4 on each hole.

You have quite the talent for throwing out your steadfast "that's the way it is" opinions on exactly what should be done about something you don't even bother to read the details on. Congratulations.

Par plus 4 is absolutely not applicable in this situation. That only applies to missed holes at the start of a round or in the middle of a round to which the player returns (the latter of which is 100% at the discretion of the TD, not the player).

Besides which, giving the player par+4 as a "punishment" for what you perceive to be ratings manipulation ultimately gives the player exactly what you are so sure he was after in the first place...to not have his round count toward his rating. A round with a slew of par+4 penalties is going to be dropped from any calculation of the round rating (so it won't affect the rest of the players' ratings) and excluded from his own average (so it won't hurt his rating overall). So what would be the point exactly?

 

[sidewinder22]

You have quite the talent for throwing out your steadfast "that's the way it is" opinions on exactly what should be done about something you don't even bother to read the details on. Congratulations.

Par plus 4 is absolutely not applicable in this situation. That only applies to missed holes at the start of a round or in the middle of a round to which the player returns (the latter of which is 100% at the discretion of the TD, not the player).

Besides which, giving the player par+4 as a "punishment" for what you perceive to be ratings manipulation ultimately gives the player exactly what you are so sure he was after in the first place...to not have his round count toward his rating. A round with a slew of par+4 penalties is going to be dropped from any calculation of the round rating (so it won't affect the rest of the players' ratings) and excluded from his own average (so it won't hurt his rating overall). So what would be the point exactly?

Didn't Brinster make cash in 2012 World's via par plus 4 to finish the last round?

 

[sidewinder22]

The OP seems to have a knack for 888 problems:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107227

 

[sidewinder22]

You have quite the talent for throwing out your steadfast "that's the way it is" opinions on exactly what should be done about something you don't even bother to read the details on. Congratulations.

Par plus 4 is absolutely not applicable in this situation. That only applies to missed holes at the start of a round or in the middle of a round to which the player returns (the latter of which is 100% at the discretion of the TD, not the player).

Besides which, giving the player par+4 as a "punishment" for what you perceive to be ratings manipulation ultimately gives the player exactly what you are so sure he was after in the first place...to not have his round count toward his rating. A round with a slew of par+4 penalties is going to be dropped from any calculation of the round rating (so it won't affect the rest of the players' ratings) and excluded from his own average (so it won't hurt his rating overall). So what would be the point exactly?

Hypocrite....
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93308

Didn't do you, as the TD, the courtesy of notifying you as to why they quit that late in the round? Seems to me that if there was a legit reason to quit, the group would have known what was up when he left and could tell you. If it was an injury or an emergency (like he got a call that his wife was in labor or something), I can't see how the group wouldn't know what happened. If he just up and quit for no reason (or to preserve his rating, which he likely wouldn't admit), I could see the group not reporting a reason or thinking anything of it.

I'd go 888. But I'm a hard-ass and hate quitters so take that with a grain of salt.

 

[JC17393]

Didn't Brinster make cash in 2012 World's via par plus 4 to finish the last round?

He never started that round, so if he was assessed par+4 for that round, it was appropriate according to the rules. He cashed in the last cash position because he made the cut and everyone who made the cut cashed.

803.03 G.
5. Missed Hole Due To Late Arrival. The player has failed to play a hole due to late arrival. The player receives a score of par plus four for the hole. See Section 1.5 B of the Competition Manual.

Section 1.5 B
1. ...If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed.

Hypocrite....
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93308

Bull ****.

In the scenario you dug out of the archives, the player in question quit his round and left the course without a word to anyone in the way of an explanation. Nothing to his group, nothing to the TD, nothing to anyone. If it was an injury or an emergency, surely he would have told someone. Were I the TD in that position, without evidence to the contrary, I'd presume he quit to protect his rating and assess the 888.

In the scenario for which this thread was started, the player in question quit with an expressed reason given to both his card mates and the TD. Given the player's reasons and the fact that he had the courtesy to explain it at all, the TD (and I agree with him) concluded that the player did not quit with the intention of protecting his rating. No 888 warranted.

I fail to see how coming to two different conclusions in two different circumstances constitutes being a hypocrite.

 

[sidewinder22]

Bull ****.

In the scenario you dug out of the archives, the player in question quit his round and left the course without a word to anyone in the way of an explanation. Nothing to his group, nothing to the TD, nothing to anyone. If it was an injury or an emergency, surely he would have told someone. Were I the TD in that position, without evidence to the contrary, I'd presume he quit to protect his rating and assess the 888.

In the scenario for which this thread was started, the player in question quit with an expressed reason given to both his card mates and the TD. Given the player's reasons and the fact that he had the courtesy to explain it at all, the TD (and I agree with him) concluded that the player did not quit with the intention of protecting his rating. No 888 warranted.

I fail to see how coming to two different conclusions in two different circumstances constitutes being a hypocrite.

As a self-proclaimed hard-ass TD (and probably as pedantic as they come), I would NEVER give an 888 to a player who had a valid excuse for leaving a tournament. Nor would I have any qualms at all regarding changing an initial 888 to a 999 if a reasonable explanation was given (your example of a car accident between rounds would most definitely fall in the category of a reasonable explanation). The rule as described in the oft-quoted article that announced it has two very specific uses which I don't really think leave much room for interpretation or abuse: manipulating a rating or leaving a tournament with no notice.

So you think a lost disc is a valid reason?

 

[JC17393]

So you think a lost disc is a valid reason?

Apparently I do, otherwise why would I be arguing against assessing an 888 to his round.

And let's be frank here. We're talking about a league round. Not a Major. Not an A-tier. Not even a weekend C-tier. A league round. Whether he quit or not on this round, he's still welcome and eligible to play the next round. DNF a round does not equal DNF the whole league like it would in a tournament. What I'm getting at is a league round is treated differently in a whole lot of ways compared to a tourney round. To me, that includes how hardline I'd be as a TD when it came to DNFs and how I treat them.

Though if I'm being honest, I probably wouldn't 888 this guy if he did this at Worlds.

 

[sidewinder22]

Apparently I do, otherwise why would I be arguing against assessing an 888 to his round.

And let's be frank here. We're talking about a league round. Not a Major. Not an A-tier. Not even a weekend C-tier. A league round. Whether he quit or not on this round, he's still welcome and eligible to play the next round. DNF a round does not equal DNF the whole league like it would in a tournament. What I'm getting at is a league round is treated differently in a whole lot of ways compared to a tourney round. To me, that includes how hardline I'd be as a TD when it came to DNFs and how I treat them.

Though if I'm being honest, I probably wouldn't 888 this guy if he did this at Worlds.

....

I'm curious how often players DNF for legit reasons? That's what we couldn't sort out when working on this new 888 program. I've DNF'd once in 24 seasons about 3 years ago. That was by choice during a deluge where even one of the holes was flooded and unplayable so they only counted 17 holes in that final round. I stopped after playing maybe 5 holes. I would have accepted a 5-pt penalty for that because bailing was more important than any impact on my rating.

Maybe not in some cases but that's also a sportsmanship issue.

 

[sidewinder22]

Apparently I do, otherwise why would I be arguing against assessing an 888 to his round.

And let's be frank here. We're talking about a league round. Not a Major. Not an A-tier. Not even a weekend C-tier. A league round. Whether he quit or not on this round, he's still welcome and eligible to play the next round. DNF a round does not equal DNF the whole league like it would in a tournament. What I'm getting at is a league round is treated differently in a whole lot of ways compared to a tourney round. To me, that includes how hardline I'd be as a TD when it came to DNFs and how I treat them.

Though if I'm being honest, I probably wouldn't 888 this guy if he did this at Worlds.

The OP has another thread about people DNFing. He has a problem in his league with bad sportsmanship and is just letting them do whatever. Some hardarse you are. Make up your mind hypocrite.

In case you missed that thread you posted in:
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107227

 

[JC17393]

Give me hard and fast rules as to what is a "valid" reason to quit a round and what isn't, and I'll abide by them. Leave it nebulous and at the TD's discretion, I'm going to call it the way I see fit on a case by case basis.

 

[sidewinder22]

Give me hard and fast rules as to what is a "valid" reason to quit a round and what isn't, and I'll abide by them. Leave it nebulous and at the TD's discretion, I'm going to call it the way I see fit on a case by case basis.

See your post I bolded a few posts up where you answered yourself.

 

[sidewinder22]

He didn't leave the tournament. He stayed to find his disc.

 

[sidewinder22]

Give me hard and fast rules as to what is a "valid" reason to quit a round and what isn't, and I'll abide by them. Leave it nebulous and at the TD's discretion, I'm going to call it the way I see fit on a case by case basis.

Valid excuse would be injury or some kind of other emergency requiring you to actually leave the park, i.e. wife going into labor, family member in accident or need of your assistance. This is obviously up to TD discretion as I said before.

Not finishing due to lost disc is a farce and bad sportsmanship. If you got your panties in a wad, I guess that is a valid excuse for you to not finish.

 

[Travis1010]

Losing discs IS a part of disc golf. I'm far from an expert on the rules... but this does seem to be bad sportsmanship.

 

[ru4por]

I just don't feel like finishing is not an acceptable excuse. Injury or some kind of personal emergency is acceptable.

See this is the rub. What you consitute a personal emergency, likely would not qualify as one in my book. This is exactly why it is TD discretion.

 

[scarpfish]

The rub is you could always make a personal emergency up.

Another if that if it was found out that your personal emergency was made up, and you were found guilty of tanking a round, handed down the dreaded 888, and had your rating held back AN ENTIRE FIVE POINTS! OMG!!, it wouldn't mean a hill of beans to 98% of the players. I'd bet a good portion of the folks who have been given 888's don't even bother to check the results.

 

[sidewinder22]

See this is the rub. What you consitute a personal emergency, likely would not qualify as one in my book. This is exactly why it is TD discretion.

Valid excuse would be injury or some kind of other emergency requiring you to actually leave the park, i.e. wife going into labor, family member in accident or need of your assistance. This is obviously up to TD discretion as I said before.

Not finishing due to lost disc is a farce and bad sportsmanship. If you got your panties in a wad, I guess that is a valid excuse for you to not finish.

That's what I said before and now before again. TD's are not required to run events and you are not required to play in them. TD's should be allowed to make that decision, although the PDGA says the group can rule this as well. In the case of withdrawing mid round because of a lost disc, IMO it's ridiculous to think this is anything other than a ratings manipulation/bad sportsmanship situation. Take your 1 stroke penalty for a lost disc and finish the round like you are supposed to do or take the supremely harsh 888 penalty for deciding to quit. This is not even close to an injury that would prevent you from continuing, unless you lost all your discs. I searched for your disc for 3 minutes, you should have to search for mine if I happen to lose a disc. Who wants to play with somebody that quits every time they lose a disc?

The rub is you could always make a personal emergency up.

Another if that if it was found out that your personal emergency was made up, and you were found guilty of tanking a round, handed down the dreaded 888, and had your rating held back AN ENTIRE FIVE POINTS! OMG!!, it wouldn't mean a hill of beans to 98% of the players. I'd bet a good portion of the folks who have been given 888's don't even bother to check the results.

For you guys....

It should be noted that there are times for a legitimate DNF by a competitor, such as a major injury.

The PDGA has taken steps to try and introduce a penalty that fits the crime while not going too overboard.

At least making up/faking major injury would be more acceptable than flat out quitting due to a lost disc. It's sore loser material any way you cut it though.

The 888 rating can also be used on players who DNF without giving the tournament director notice at least 15 minutes prior to the start of the next round.

If 15 minutes before the round, you tell the TD you are/might have to leave mid round that's ok. I might even let you call it 15 minutes before you lose your disc, as long as you aren't crying wolf every couple minutes.

 

[zrxchris]

The OP seems to have a knack for 888 problems:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107227

I've ran our local league for 2 years.
DNF situations have come up a lot, and the problem is that an L-Tier is very different than a tourney. Since it's only one round the whole let the TD know you can't play is not very feasible. If you register and start, then your playing. If an emergency comes up or you get injured or stung by fire ants (yes this happened and the player texted me) then it's tough to have the 999 when you already started and it's only 1 round.
I have had a few guys say " F#%*" it and
Quit and they got 888's.

In this whole thread I don't think people are realizing this was league not a tourney.

The 999 & 888 rules are just not clear for leagues.

We play different courses, so often DNF's seem to come up at the big OB course and not the woods course.

A DNF ends up not counting in our league where it's a "best of" like this fall is best 5 out if 8 allowing folks to only have to complete 5 rounds to cash. The aforementioned thread was asking what other league directors do when league players DNF.

I think the big thing that league and tourneys should have different DNF rules. Since league is only one round at a time.

I do like the debate though.....