Can a pitch and putt course be top 10?

[Stardoggy]

I would add, as a relatively new player, I do feel spoiled being around so many great courses. The Kettle Moraine area really provides for great terrain for disc golf. I look forward to visiting many of the MI courses, as well, as my stepson has moved there from New York, so I'll have plenty of opportunity to get to some courses in that direction.

I do find the polar opinions about Flip City to be interesting, and I'll be getting there this fall (hopefully).

 

[ZMan44]

Having been a member of this site for a very long time, this discussion of rating inflation has been going on for a very long time. There will always be "homers" who will elevate course ratings. There will always be "homers" who will attack those of us who seek to rate as objectively as possible. But optidisc hit on something I had not thought of, and perhaps other TRs have had this same feeling: after traveling and playing lots of courses, I come home happy that I live in the area I do and happy to have the great courses around me. Maybe we tend to inflate our local courses as well...because we know the intricacies. Interesting thought and one I had not considered. The hardest thing for me to do is to write an objective review after being disappointed. Again, I've used this site long enough to know that sometimes a course just does not live up to the hype. On the flip side, this site provides me with enough external data (aside from the reviews) to identify courses that would appeal to me.

In essence, the Top 10 is merely a list of compiled opinions. Having played Blue Ribbon Pines and Blueberry Hill, I'm not so sure they're deserving of Top 10 status. BRP wouldn't even be in my own personal Top 25...but that's just me. Other people obviously love it. As for Blueberry, I was a little disappointed...but I was pleasantly surprised by Gold and Granite Ridge. I loved Flip City and Flyboy. I was let down by some of the Floridian courses. I really enjoyed Sandy Point in Northern Wisconsin, and it's not a very long course. Bottom line: when basing which course to play on other people's opinions, you'll win some and lose some. The only issue that I see created by gleaning so much data from this site is that we enter each round at a new course with a preconceived bias, based on what we've been told. Enjoy each course for what it is...and begin the critique after the experience.

 

[JonCatch]

DGCRs own review guidelines say "Remember, a "5" is considered the ultimate. There is absolutely nothing that could be done to improve the course. It is perfect in every possible way."

Based on this description, I don't think I could give a 5-star rating without a minimum of:

2 bars along the course (or a cocktail waitress)
Golf Carts
Massage Chairs and ESPN playing at the Tee Box
Well trained dogs to accompany you while playing to retrieve any errand throws
And a post-round display summarizing your round, discs thrown, average distance, etc.

And that still may only earn a 4 1/2. :doh:

 

[Stardoggy]

Zman: I'm in agreement with you about Blueberry. I actually enjoyed Granite Ridge the most out of all the HBH courses. I really liked Standing Rocks, which we hit along the way, as well.

Sandy Point was super nice, with all the amenities on site. We discussed actually staying there for a weekend next year and driving to HBH (among others) for a day (a long, long day) instead of camping at HBH.

 

[mndiscg]

Zman: I'm in agreement with you about Blueberry. I actually enjoyed Granite Ridge the most out of all the HBH courses. I really liked Standing Rocks, which we hit along the way, as well.

Sandy Point was super nice, with all the amenities on site. We discussed actually staying there for a weekend next year and driving to HBH (among others) for a day (a long, long day) instead of camping at HBH.

2/3rds of Standing Rocks is a pitch and putt. Not to say that I didn't enjoy it but most of the holes are really easy.

 

[Stardoggy]

I think I liked it because of how it all went down. It was an "along the way" course, and we also got caught in a torrential downpour over the last three holes. I guess sometimes the non-discing memories greatly improve the overall experience.

 

[Kenny53691]

Anything is possible when the ratings are based off the opinions of others.

Is it likely? Hardly.

IMO, it is a DGCR reviewer's responsibility to deny a "5" to courses that have single chain baskets, or has an average length under 230...etc.

I agree 100%!

 

[mashnut]

Not sure how a single chain basket could fall under these guidelines. It's not perfect in every possible way. Or even natural teepads, which turn to crap in the rain.

Reviews shouldn't use course extras to overcome shortcomings. If a course is perfect in every way, except the tee signs...then it's really not perfect in every way. Right? I think a lot of reviewers forget this.

Then again, it's a guideline, not set in stone.

It all depends on your priorities. Some reviewers rate heavily on amenities like signs, tees and tee signs, and even benches and bathrooms. Others rate almost completely on the shots themselves. Most fall somewhere in between. For me, the target simply doesn't make a difference in my rating. Putting is going to be basically the same on any kind of target, and doesn't change course to course. It's all about interesting and challenging variety of drives and upshots for me, and whether that cool fairway ends in a top notch basket or a tone pole is irrelevant.

I'll agree with you a bit more on teepads, though I wouldn't condemn all natural tees. I've played some courses in drier climates with great natural tees, and I've played some really terrible concrete tees that were far more dangerous and frustrating than not having a pad at all. I'll only rate down on the amenities if it's totally impossible to follow the course or if the tees are sloped or rutted, and even then it's only a very small part of my overall rating.

I don't think course should have its ceiling lowered only because its on a small piece of land. That should be considered an uncontrollable.
I know there may be some NASCAR fans out there. Would the same logic be applied to the Bristol Motor Speedway? Would it not be considered top notch because it is only a half mile track?
A course of any size could get a 5 star rating.
Radcliff could easily be a 5 star course. There are a couple factors that keep it from it. Mostly due to the close proximity of non disc golfer using the park.

My point is not to criticize the course because it does not have any air it out type holes. I am not questioning the OP about his concern of the Magic Meadows rating. His points are valid in that it appears to have a local bias.

I'm not sure I agree with the philosophy of ignoring factors that the designer didn't have control of when rating courses. Sure, some designers are going to do a better job with a boring piece of land than others, but that doesn't mean I would choose a really well designed course on flat open property over just a good design on property with elevation and trees. Just because a designer doesn't have control over something doesn't mean it's not something that influences how enjoyable the course is and what rating it deserves.

 

[New013]

At first I didn't give Hawk Hollow a 5 for basically having unlevel natural pads on some holes. After a while and some thought I went back and gave it a 5. I don't agree that a 5 disc course has to be perfect, it just has to leave you walking away thinking "HS that was epic!" and Hawk Hollow is epic so it gets the 5.

 

[Puckstopper]

I'm curious as to what makes a course a "pitch and putt"? I can see calling both of Paulie Rothey's courses pitch and putt, as they average around 230' per hole. However, Flip averages about 250' from the shorts, and 321' from the longs. To compare those numbers to some of the local courses I play, Hoover Reservoir (home of the Brett Hambrick Memorial Open NT) is 251 from the shorts, and 346' from the longs. Simsbury is 285'/370', Deerfield (in Mt Pleasant, MI) only goes 312' from the longs, and that is a fairly well reviewed course. My point is that all of these courses are similar in length to Flip, and no-one is bashing them as "pitch and putt" courses. To call a course a pitch and putt, in my mind at least, you have to be able to play the whole thing with nothing longer than a fairway driver and a putter. MM and Phantom Falls both pretty much fit the bill, although Phantom has two holes over 350' (the only two holes with "long" tees) and MM has only one at 362'. Both courses could comfortably be played with nothing more than a Buzzz and a putter if you had to. Flip on the other hand has a full 1/3 of it's 24 holes over 350' in length, 4 of which are over 400', and another is close at 395'. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a dog in this fight. It seems like any positive review of Flip gets tons of thumbs down, but I just hear so many good things about the course from people who are willing to drive several hours to play it. However, Flip seems to catch a lot of flak on this site, and I'm curious where that comes from. Maybe my perception will change after I get a chance to play the course in a couple weeks.

 

[ohtobediscing]

Having been a member of this site for a very long time,....

Yanni, is that you? In Smyrna, TN?!?

 

[ZMan44]

However, Flip seems to catch a lot of flak on this site, and I'm curious where that comes from. Maybe my perception will change after I get a chance to play the course in a couple weeks.

I agree with you that Flip catches a lot of flak, and I hope you enjoy your round there. It's an awesome course.

I think Flip, like MM and PF right now, catches a lot of flak from people who have never played it and look at nothing more than the distance posted online. I'd rather play a 240' hole with an interesting fairway than a wide open 400' hole...but we honestly have no idea about hole design until we step on the tee.

In short, a lot of folks like to think their home course is the best because they put down wood chips around the green and cleared out some undergrowth on a work day. When you are part of a local club, the course becomes a part of you. The thought that another course could be superior is tough to deal with. Just my opinion on the "Home Boy Bias".

Enjoy Flip City!

 

[Chiefstang]

I'm a TR.

I not only have played MM, but spent a few work days installing it.

That said, I would put it at 4 stars. There are shortcomings that will be improved over time. Anybody who's been to Phantom knows how OCD Paulie is.

 

[bjreagh]

Just played Magic Meadows, Phantom Falls, and Beaver Ranch. As far as Magic Meadows being a "pitch n putt", well it is not. Remember that 250' flat is waaaayyyyy different than 250' straight up hill through a narrow grove of trees to a basket hidden behind a giant rock. MM plays much longer than it looks at paper. Not to mention the effect the altitude has on how you feel (get winded easier) and how the disc flies (makes them more stable changing the flight path that you are used to.) I don't think MM is a top 10 course for other reasons (see review for more details if you want), but still a very nice course.